Junior Doctors Unemployment in August part 2

[PurpleFairyLights]

Following on from previous thread.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5337022-junior-doctors-unemployment-in-august?utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=share

Why do you think UK MGs should have to do a PhD to get into specialty training in their own country?

Seilliam - thankyou
Wes comments are far more concerning than people are realising

Um no sure. We should make sure that doctors are as ill educated as possible, particularly on the science front.

What is there to debate? Despite all your sideshows PAs doing central lines. UK grads not good enough etc.

UK to prioritise UKMG for training posts. Nothing to debate.

Not UK grads to do a PhD to get into specialty training.

PurpleFairyLights rather than opening your mind only to those who posted 'Wes is listening' 'We have won' etc etc, maybe stop closing it to those who are saying the bit between the lines may not yield the outcome that you/ mumsneedwine are hoping for.

We are getting the outcome we were hoping for. You might not like UKG but the rest of the country does. And they will now get priority. And lots of greedy organisations, like BAPIO and the GMC, can stamp their little feet and throw their toys around, but it’s happening. Good, isn’t it ? 😊😊😊

If we can find out where that PA is doing central lines, the BMA will investigate. Because they shouldn’t be. Naughty naughty consultant allowing illegal practice to happen, wonder who was ‘supervising’ (they are sarcastic ellipses again Sevillian, just so you’re sure)

Well obviously, good luck with that mumsneedwine.

Maybe come back in a few weeks time to celebrate properly having read the document fully and listened to discussion in the press about what it actually means.

That is laughable. A PhD is a very narrow area of study and should not be an entry requirement for specialty training.

I am concerned about the lack of respect for the intellectual capabilities and ability of our young doctors. I am not sure the likes of Wes Streeting and Chris Witty would agree with you.

So the 60,000 applicants for 12,000 places did not cause UK doctor unemployment it was lack of intellectual robustness and lack of PhD?

No one is saying IMGs won’t have jobs. They will get the ones left after current UK staff, as they DO IN EVERY OTHER (apparently racist) COUNTRY IN THE WHOLE WIDE WORLD.

mumsneedwine I'm very unsure on the basis of your posts that I'm the one who needs help with SPaG.

As you well know, using inverted commas around 'those' was wholly beside the point. The point was that your sentence said in terms that students who didn't have holidays therefore couldn't attend 'top' unis.

The obfuscation though:10/10.

Well merit plays a part, obviously.

Over his career Chris Whitty will have seen plenty of UK MGs who weren't good enough for a training post. He's not deluded.

Ah it’s so predictable. Don’t like what I say, so throw the insults. Keep going, you look like a bigger tool every time.

The sun is shining, UKG are getting priority and sense will once again prevail. And doctors allowing PAs to do chest drains will hopefully leave the profession v soon. With their ladders

No one has said on any of these discussions that UKMGs should not be prioritised - what many of us have attempted to do is give it some context and suggest a modification as there was before. The belief that no IMG prior to 2019 got into specialist training and all UKMGs got to progress is so far from the truth. I gave an example but the OPs ignored the narrativi that disproves their sweeping statements. I do agree with putting 18 months of NHS experience as a criteria in the selection process is sensible.

i have respect for anyone who managed to get into medical school and passed out. Are all of them created equal - no, and at some point there has to be some pruning. This is a concept purple and mums do not seem to be able to grasp. It automatically is turned into you hate/disrespect UKMGs. It is far better at the beginning of your career to find out you can not /would be better off pursuing something than being weeded out age 35 with family and children to be told your operative skills ae not up to it. You can function at level B but not level A. I have seen this happen. I have seen this happen in the last few years, watched people at 32-33+ re apply for training in another area, leave the profession

Not all UKMGs are ready to progress at the same time - that is a fact. Some want to do other things, so the 12000 /13000 argument gets worse. Automatic progression with no competition is not good for healthcare in the long term. The premise that all UKMGs are guaranteed a job from18-35 - which is the logical conclusion of this argument with no competition, no need to push yourself other than ticking the boxes is quite a scary thought to those of us in the medical profession.

And yes a Phd does have relevance in some areas of medicine - and your ability to apply yourself and research is a fundamental part of many careers in healthcare.

Isn’t it lovely when things work out well. UKG getting priority (wannabe agreeing now too).

Let’s hope the PA issue gets sorted v soon too. Because that’s dangerous (& often criminal as some have been prescribing !).

Fully behind consultants ballot for this too. 🦀

mums - I never disagreed you just do not like context and reality

Of coursethere are the odd ones but your exaggerated language make out it is nearly UK trained doctor.

Also we need an investigation

@wannabewitch you disagreed with me quite a lot but glad we are now not. I get cross when anyone belittles a colleague (or any graduate from any Uni), and have so far been called racist, illiterate, stupid, hysterical and unable to use ellipses for sarcasm. I’ve been told how and when I am allowed to respond. Weirdly, I also disagree with other posters methods and ways of taking to people, but what I don’t do is tell them they can’t do it.

I am very glad we have made some noise and educated some people about the reality of doctor unemployment. Not just residents ones, but GP and consultants too. And because others have made more noise, change is coming.

I want doctors in our NHS. Not non doctors. As does every other patient.

Met Chris Whitty a few months ago. He was lovely, but I did ask him why no one ever bought him a clicker to change those bloody slides himself !!!

And you just don't like grammar. Not the point of the thread but your writing doesn't quite fit your alleged credentials.

@Hollibobcat UKG getting priority allows me to over look others imperfections 😊

Oh that old insult is back. We do grasp it. It seems that your attitude has changed.

Of course there are some doctors that are not ready to progress or should not be doctors and this needs to be addressed quickly. This will have been going on for decades and is not a new problem. But a high proportion of doctors are ready to progress and will be unemployed.

We have not said every UKMG is ready/should progress to specialty training. We have had to keep pointing this out. You keep saying it does not make it true.

We want UK to prioritise UKMGs that are ready to progress (as evidenced by ARCP and consultant references etc) to be prioritised for UK training posts.

mums - ** you disagreed with me quite a lot but glad we are now not. I get cross when anyone belittles a colleague (or any graduate from any Uni), and have so far been called racist, illiterate, stupid, hysterical and unable to use ellipses for sarcasm. I’ve been told how and when I am allowed to respond. Weirdly, I also disagree with other posters methods and ways of taking to people, but what I don’t do is tell them they can’t do it.
That was not me - I think it was you and purple who belittled and scorned my education and background. I have not belittled any one.

I never disagreed but I did put in context and suggested why as a concept it has flaws which should be addressed rather than blindly giving every UKMG a guaranteed job.

But you can not stop yourself being offensive:
want doctors in our NHS. Not non doctors. As does every other patient. - so i assume you mean all ANPS, CNS, consultant physio, OT etc.
PAs have a role in the NHS - just a shame you only look at the reports which highlight the bad not the good. Remember these are young people just like resident doctors and have bills, feelings and career aspirations. Your ill informed rhetoric undermines your arguments