Junior Doctors Unemployment in August part 2

[PurpleFairyLights]

Following on from previous thread.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5337022-junior-doctors-unemployment-in-august?utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=share

Unfortunately it comes with the territory but it will not work. They are just embarrassing themselves.

Obviously UK was racist pre 2019 when it prioritised UKMGs.

Also the 195 countries that prioritise their own graduates are racist too.

Sorry to see you go 😁. You have been quite unpleasant over a very simple request. The arrogance of you trying to analyse others is breathtaking.

There is nothing complicated about wanting UK graduates to be priorited like every other country in the world.

If it’s barely veiled it should be easy to point out? And report, presumably?

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2025/jun/20/overseas-trained-doctors-put-off-uk-due-to-cost-of-living-and-low-salaries?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

Of course! Please report the racism. Then you can stop mentioning people being racist as a way to try to control the thread.

What is racist about asking for UK graduates to be prioritised for specialist training like every other country in the world.

The UK can prioritise UKMGs for the training posts but it will still have a shortage of doctors to fill the rotas and with the best will in the world it will take a further 10 yrs minimum from next year to see through a surgeon from CT1/2/3 -ST3/4/5/6/7/8 + a Fellowship.

622 CT posts per year in Gen Surgery - each hospital has a compliant rota of 12-15 residents. Throw in LTFT, mat and pat leave, sickness etc . 622 does not go far around the NHS hospitals

Chuck all the IMGs out right now we still do not have enough ST3/4/5/6 etc to feed the rotas - any solutions once we chuck them all out and say thank you for your service but no thank you.

so mums and purple - how do you think the UK health service will survive in the mean time when you send people home. Knee jerk responses do not address the underlying issues.

12000 doctors 13000 training slots - we will always need IMGS.

No one is saying send IMGs home. Stop trying to twist words of the OP. Stop calling concerned posters racist. Has it occurred to you that some concerned posters may be from minority ethnic groups too? Issues relating to medical school related cheating, bribery and corruption in India is well-known and been going on for years. When there are enough unemployed UK MGs and IMGs already working in the NHS, there is no need to take a chance on employing new IMGs. I am pretty sure that (in a similar scenario) if India had to choose between prioritising its own residents for jobs or foreign nationals, it would put the interests of Indians first. Pulling the racist card to counter legitimate concerns of the OP is a disservice to all minority groups.

Previous posters have suggested sending IMGs home.

No one is insulting IMGs ?? Where are reading that ? But they are not needed so shouldn’t come -
I have not called anyone racist

Has it occurred to you that some of the other posters may come from minorities!?

Pulling the racist card to counter legitimate concerns of the OP is a disservice to all minority groups - I have not accused anyone of racism.

Some IMGS are needed at different levels.

😂 Couldn't be further from the truth. If anything, let's hope this issue of new IMGs being prioritised ahead of tens of thousands of unemployed UK doctors doesn't get their attention. If these issues don't get resolved, there will be further division in society if certain parties politicise the issue to further their own agenda.

The 'Rachel one' wasn't hinting.

Another subtle change of the argument:
let's hope this issue of new IMGs being prioritised
not what has been said over 2 threads

If you are not hinting about the racism why are posting here instead of reporting the racists posts to Mumsnet?

It is not racist to want the UK to prioritise its medical graduates like every country in the world does.

I am finding it hard to fathom how difficult certain posters are finding this. Unless it is being done to try to control the posters on the thread.

Rachel & Sevillian have played the race card. Every time the race card is pulled unnecessarily, you are doing a disservice to the rest of the community.

You talk about all IMGs like every IMG has got here on merit. Surely, you know or have heard of the widely reported cases of corruption and bribery and people getting jobs in India because of their parents' connections or because they all went to the same prestigious private schools. Alumni. Friends of the family etc. Come on, be fair. Stop denying it. I get that some once here exhibit the same entitled behaviour they had back in India. Expecting to compete on the same footing as the domestic workforce for jobs in the UK. Also let's just admit that once old, many IMG consultants do go back home adding to the shortage of consultants in the UK. I know many that have gone back. Sometimes, understandably, to care for elderly parents who miss them. Others so they can have a cook, a maid and driver back in India. Some winter back in India and come here for the summer months. Many go back home after their kids have finished their education in UK universities. They do want their children to attend Oxbridge and highly sought after London universities and so carry on working in the UK until their children finish their education. There are others of course that use their UK qualifications as a stepping stone to Canada, Australia, NZ.

It's not racist to point the truth out. We can because we are highly aware of what's happening in the community. Stop gaslighting the OP.

I am amazed that you cannot see the the potential for a huge backlash when it becomes more widely known that thousands of UK medical graduates are unemployed in August.

You have disclosed you are a doctor on this thread so your comments will potentally come under more scrutiny especially the comments about the specialty training recruitment system to put it mildly.

Where? Please quote. The unemployment issue is very complex. It's understandable if you are unable to grasp the crux of the issue but if you don't understand it, please stop spreading disinformation like this.

Previous posters making things up again. Not sure how racism comes into this as many many UK trained doctors are non white. And no one ever has said send anyone home. Because people who live here already are home.

But like every other country in the world we should give priority for jobs to UK trained staff (some of whom are from abroad). It’s simple economics. Or we will have many more unemployed UK doctors who have cost a lot of money to train.

How any doctor thinks any of that is controversial is beyond me. But then we have doctors who prefer training their PA to do a chest drain over the medically qualified doctor. That’s the sadest part, the ladder pulling consultants who have let their colleagues down.

mumsneedwine there have been very gauchely worded suggestions that I might be an 'IMG' with the associated implication that that would be a Bad Thing. To my mind that's part of the racism, although it falls short of the torrent of Daily Mail style accusations which have been thrown the IMG community's way on this thread and indeed the other threads too. I think perhaps a single acknowledgment from yourself that some truly incredible work has been done by this same community, and continues of course. Almost lost in the noise however.

What I get from the incredibly circular threads is not any ladder pulling but rather consultants being very, very clear with you that in their professional experience - which you and OP lack - some medical graduates from UK medical schools (leaving aside the whole IMG issue for a moment) are just not very good. That they are not ready for or indeed capable of progression. This is something that you and OP and several others with UK MG DC seem absolutely unable to accept. In the 12,000 figure of course there will be those of merit not just to get on to the training pathway but to get through all of the extremely challenging exams and reviews and through to qualification as a consultant. But also a very large number who simply aren't up to it and might well have been better pursuing a different career. They might function as 'forever SHOs' but no more. This then gets met with sidetracking about WP and disadvantaged students which is an absolute red herring. But the idea that prior attainment (contextualised) might be an indicator of things to come, or that the hardest-to-get-into-research-heavy unis might add value as a student goes through the stages of a medical training seems to set a vocal clutch of cats among the pigeons and then one has to wade through the treacle of rude and emotional and plain silly posts to hear grounded and realistic points made again, but to little avail. Although they might be of interest to those who want to be actually informed rather than assuming that the loudest, shoutiest, rudest posters make the most sense.

I wonder if you get the full implication of Wes Streeting saying no more consultants? I think probably not.

That is one consultant saying that on this post. Well one that disclosed they are a doctor.

What would you suggest if so many UKMGs that are not ready to progress?

What percentage are not ready to progress?

Their medical school passed them, they passed their ARCP and their consultants gave them a favourable reference but still a few voices undermining their intelligence and ability and UK medical education.

Way more than one consultant across the various almost identical threads OP. Lots. Maybe go back and have a re-read.

I would suggest that any UK MG who hasn't secured a training post this year uses the year from August profitably, tries again next year then considers a sideways move to a different career after that.

Indeed one poster has already suggested looking at PhDs which will always enhance a portfolio. I suppose the practical issue is that unless an applicant for a PhD has an excellent degree then even if they get on to a PhD programme they almost certainly won't get funding. So we get back to the academics again - another circle.

Oh not this again.

Only one person has disclosed they are a consultant on this thread. So who are the other multiple consultants that have said the same as you?

Or is it you and all the other people that pile in saying UK graduates are not good enough?

I only outed myself as a doctor after the vitriolic abuse directed at me - for not being a doctor and not knowing what I am talking about. The lack of understanding, past present and future by some of the posters as to how we are where we are - needed some context. Their belief that everyone has had it easy in the past and do not understand is incorrect, blaming AHPS without context and knowledge, blaming IMGS telling them to go home again without understanding. Suggesting solutions that do not solve the systemic problem and believing this is OK for now and the next 10 years do not matter.

However, unless you are a mother of a current "resident" doctor you know nothing. Refusal to debate and repeatedly ask the same question - and unless you agree with "me" then you hate our UKMGs and are wrong is not helpful.

How do people suggest we treat these awful IMGS who stole jobs from rightful UKMGs and got training slots and jobs from August. Shall we refuse to teach them because they are not UKMGs?

Read the threads as a whole OP. They're very clear indeed. I'm aware that you don't like what people are saying but they're saying it with the benefit of professional experience, and there are many of them saying the same.

You asked me what the options were for those not getting a training post, so I replied. I do see that you want to get away from any suggestion that so many young UK MGs won't progress, but that is the reality of what's going to happen.