Junior Doctors Unemployment in August part 2

[PurpleFairyLights]

Following on from previous thread.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5337022-junior-doctors-unemployment-in-august?utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=share

And they WERE needed, but aren’t any more. Why is that so hard to understand? We have enough UK trained doctors now.

How has anyone insulted IMGs ? Or do you mean not agreed with them ? And as woman and mummies this is not allowed ? I’ve just been told how I should respond - misogynistic rubbish.

Some really overinvested critics, some of whom have name changed over multiple threads! Some of the ones who have been banging on about merit have had children attending private school from aged 3-18. Nothing wrong with that of course but it might explain their obsession with league tables for medicine and with making out doctors aren't good enough if they haven't gone to Oxbridge, Imperial, etc. Also chances are that some of this lot don't use the NHS but use private healthcare, hence their lack of understanding of the issues within the NHS. They don't experience it so they don't know.

Where exactly is this sneering? I don't believe that it's anywhere in this thread, or indeed the earlier ones.

But I do wonder why you said that because the students at your school didn't go on holidays that they could only therefore go to the least competitive medical schools. I quoted that back to you this morning. (No answer/ no surprises).

But then that comment makes about as much sense as almost every single other thing that you say. Notably: that all UK medical schools are equally competitive and that prior attainment at each is identical (allowing for contextualisation), that all UK medical students are equally bright and possess equal potential to be consultants, and that the 12,000 training posts should therefore go automatically to these young people.

Then, so often, you ask what is it that people don't understand.

Which actually, given your own evidently really quite profound lack of understanding, is very funny.

@Sevillian the comment was ‘those type of medical schools (meaning ones not deemed good) were all my students would go to. After I’d said they were mostly WP.

@Sevillian and I didn’t reply this morning because I was on a school trip. As I clearly said. Some of us work 🤷‍♀️

Never said my students can’t get into any Uni - they do. Sneering patronising comment was made by another poster.

mumsneedwine why do we need an account of your every move? Very redolent of Chaucer's Man of Law ('Nowher so bisy a man as he there nas,
And yet he semed bisier than he was').

And again. The insults. I’m too thick to understand anything. Because I disagree with you. Can’t debate, so attack, it’s what teenagers do.

@Sevillian again, I’ll post what I like, when I like. Don’t like it, don’t read it. Ever seem Ricky Gervais and guitar lessons joke ? Worth a look

So one last post and then I'm gone. To anyone who says I shouldn't be on this thread,why not? I am a taxpayer and an NHS patient and I am married to a doctor. I have been very interested in education for a long time, not least while advising our own children not to be doctors. I am nothing to do with BAPIO, although that fanciful illusion is entertaining.

I have tried to bring an acceptance of reality,and while I have been accused of describing medical students as 'rubbish ' etc this is not true. I had hoped to make people realise the truth of the unemployment problem. Perhaps I have not explained it clearly enough though.

The NHS has a pyramidal employment structure. Many doctors on the bottom layer to do all of the more unskilled work. At every stage of training the layer gets smaller, and the number of people in it gets fewer. In order for that number to get smaller some people have to not be able to progress.

If the number of new graduates is now 12000 a year, how do you suggest that we get that number down to the 7000 (3000 for hospital doctors and 4000 GP) entrants to specialist training? That reduction in numbers has always happened and I think that many people don't realise that. 5000 doctors from every year will not have a long term career in the health service. There is nowhere for them to go in the system. If the number of LED jobs is increased it is only going to help as a one off, people will not move on from those jobs.

It is very unlikely that training posts will be increased because there is nowhere for them to go without an increase in consultant numbers. Wes Streeting explicitly said yesterday that there will be no more consultants, he intends for more to 'be done on apps, on the phone, and on the High Street'. Some of it by nurses.

Weaker candidates are not going to get jobs. They might lose out now to better IMG s, or later on to better British candidates. Whichever way you cut it we are training 5000 people too many every year. We could double the number of consultants but then the whole NHS would have to be twice as big as it is now. To reiterate, Wes Streeting has said it will not get any bigger.

Doctors are unemployed. Come August many many more will join them. Wes is listening. Can see the problem.

The tax payer has trained them so should employ them to recoup that cash. Before IMGs, who should get the left over jobs, just like in every other country in the world.

Oh plenty of posters on these threads can debate, and have done so. They get no replies to the many salient points made - because you and OP don't appear to be able to keep up.

Mine was just a comment about your apparent need to portray your very busy life.

@oddandelsewhere just to clarify, there are 12,000 UK graduates and 13,000 training posts, so should be simple 🤷‍♀️

@Sevillian well I do work which a lot of people today don’t seem too ! You expected a reply during the working day when I’d said I was on a trip ?

I’ll post what I like when I like, don’t like it, don’t read it. That’s what I do.

Exactly. Their terminology is very similar and the hysterical descriptions too.

They are trying to undermine us so our argument about UK prioritising UK graduates gets lost.

Do you notice they keep saying that we are arguing about doctors that are not ready to progress going into training? Also saying we are rude when they are incredibly rude.

Unfortunately it has attracted attention and not in the way they hoped.

Thanks very much for your input oddandelsewhere. It's been very heartening to read some sane posts to leaven the others.

OP and mumsneedwine: some of these kids can't cut the mustard. It really is that simple. Plenty of people from other countries are far better than they are (more intelligent and with more raw potential), even without the material advantages that so many of these kids have had.

Harsh reality.

Again you belittle UK graduates. It’s almost like you have a vested interest in IMGs.

Of course I don't expect an immediate reply but you do seem to post all day every day most days. But you know, in the next few days perhaps let us know why kids who don't have holidays are banned from the unis which feature year on year at the top of the league table for academic excellence (as opposed to student satisfaction).

And so out of touch. Material advantage ? Not for most medical students these days. They have £100,000+ of debt.

By material advantage I'm referring to the homes the students grew up in and their socio economic background. Very obviously.

@Sevillian ???? I said no one should not go to any Uni. One of your friends said my students were only capable of going to your idea of a ‘bad’ Uni, and I called them vile. My students go to all sorts of Unis, but aren’t snobs about what is best and what isn’t. They all end up as doctors (obviously not good enough for you).

Please read more carefully next time.

I have zero vested interest in IMGs.

How do you know the socioeconomic background of medical students ? Most are from normal homes, not stately homes.

Well you certainly think they are better than UKG. Which is strange when so many people want to come here because of the Uni training 🤷‍♀️

@Sevillian just to warn you, I won’t be replying for a while because I’m going out. Might read some Chaucer on the train.

Here is my post from earlier this morning which quotes you directly. Copied and pasted. Here you say (I’m off on a school trip to the seaside. With ‘those students’ who won’t get another holiday this year, so will only be able to go to ‘those Unis’).

I think it's you, not me, who needs to do the close reading.