Junior Doctors Unemployment in August part 2

[PurpleFairyLights]

Following on from previous thread.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5337022-junior-doctors-unemployment-in-august?utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=share

Doctors do have more responsibility. How is that an attack ???? PAs shouldn’t exist as anything more than an assistant - they should not be putting in chest drains. That’s a doctors job. PAs can’t work unsupervised by a consultant - by law.

Re your quote

"I initially commented to try to be helpful by expressing that when I didn't get a place on training...."

If you had read the OP's threads back carefully, you may have realised that many that have criticised the OP have suggested that perhaps the reason her DC didn't get training was due to not being as good as the others that did get training. I don't think you would have liked those posters saying the same about you when you didn't get training first time. The OP's DC, like tens of thousands of other doctors, is facing unemployment this summer and the reason for this has nothing to do with his ability.

I think it is an attempt to undermine the message of the thread for reasons yet unknown 🤔

Indeed. Many overinvested posters without affected DCs. It's a sunny day! Surely, there's a lot more that they could have done with their time today. 😎

Yes. 😆

I am particularly concerned about the questioning the ability of UK doctors and the quality of UK medical education. What is the point of attempting to undermine our doctors?

This afternoon felt like a full on attack by many posters at the same time.

Why so angry about wanting the UK to go back to pre 2019 when it prioritised UKMGs.

The mere mention of an investigation about why the UKs in this mess did not go down well at all

This is interesting. So those ‘best’ IMGs won’t be in the UK.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2025/jun/20/overseas-trained-doctors-put-off-uk-due-to-cost-of-living-and-low-salaries

Why indeed

It is a criminal offence to say you are a doctor when you ate not.

At no point have I said PAs are better qualified or better than doctors.

DO I think there is a place for PAs, - yes I do. Healthcare evolves, it is not a stagnant beast and challenging the stereotypical perception of roles in a health care system is what drives progress and excellence. One of the biggest healthcare industries i the world successfully uses PAs and if you look at their models then you can see where the role can compliment both nursing and medical work. Do I think PAS, ANPS, CNS etc replace doctors - no I do not. If health care did not evolve we would not have advanced nurse practitoners, doctors would still be giving the first dose of antibiotics and all iv antibiotics, inserting every venflon and taking every blood.

Tick boxes are what training has become and you observe some trainees seeing it as a game to tick the boxes, because that says I can move on but not guaranteeing they have learned the true value of what that box was supposed to represent.

Yes I do feedback regularly and am vocal on the subject. Hence my example about my current trainee who has ticked all the boxes and is so not ready to progress due to the lack of other "soft" skills which are poorly assessed. By your criteria he should automatically get a training post -disaster for him and patients. Failing to get a number has made him have to re evaluate his lot in life and take a step back. In the pub last Friday he said - I am so not cut out for F2F health care but I can make the grade because playing the game is easy. He has gained insight and is off for a career in a lab /research/ industry which he will be brilliant at. We discussed how the treadmill of medical education does not give you time to think from 18 to spitting you out at the end - unless you ae prepared to jump off, take a leap off faith and accept getting back is going to be hard.
Who knows at 18 what they want to be at 45 - very few people. WE ahve made medical education so regimented that changing your mid, questioining your decision is now vey difficult.

True. The ones that do come are the ones looking for what they perceive initially as the easier route to globally recognised qualifications and an escape from even poorer salaries in their home countries. Some IMGs are being paid a few hundred pounds a month in their home countries. Indian IMGs having to compete with almost a million each year for limited training opportunities at home. If they are rich enough to pass the BAPIO route, fast tracking here a possibility. Surely not everyone rich enough for BAPIO is getting here on merit. BAPIO, given their connections in high places in India should pressure India to increase their limited speciality training places instead of pressuring the NHS for training opportunities for Indian IMGs at the expense of the UK workforce.

Seriously, have the last few days of posts not taught some of you anything. Lets insult those IMGS who have made leap and decided to come to the UK to see training and insult them all again - clever doctors know not to come tot he UK - so you must be thickies.
Please can people stop with the insults, it is demeaning to everyone.

No one is insulting IMGs ?? Where are reading that ? But they are not needed so shouldn’t come - same as if I wanted to go to their country. Why is that controversial?

Wow there are some self deluded conspiracy theories on the go here today😂

Two incredibly rude protagonists, breaching multiple MN guidelines ('vile human' etc), so limited that they still think their argument (that all UK MGs are not only all brilliant but equally brilliant and of consultant level potential) has traction, and wilfully blanking the fact that they've been annihilated across several threads by people who actually have more coal face experience and are demonstrably articulate and intelligent.

Great thread.

How are posters so able to embarrass themselves without knowing it?

Loving the BAPIO fifth column stuff especially.

Sorry who has insulted IMGs? I have not seen any insults.

Unless you think asking for the UK to prioritise UKMGs is an insult?

Please tell us date and time of the insults.

@Sevillian I think people calling F1s useless while having their PAs do chest drains are vile humans. Ladder pulling ones. Can’t be bothered to do their job and train the doctors of the future, but can train the not medically qualified PA. Absolutely vile.

I’m still waiting for the posts where I was so rude 😂.

They throw the insults out as it makes them feel better about themselves. It’s always nice to make someone happy so off you pop again.

@Sevillian I also think anyone who sneers at working class kids wanting to be doctors is pretty vile too.

Might be confusing for some reading. The route I referred to are the courses organised by their training arm where some courses cost £30k plus per new IMG. An IMG who pays for that route to be fast tracked into the NHS is leapfrogging many other new IMGs that may be better qualified so this merit argument as far as IMGs are concerned is not reasonable. Time taken to accommodate these IMGs could possibly lead to a reduction in training capacity. How much is being paid to the lobby group's training arm by the NHS every time a new IMG is recruited who has completed one of their courses, especially at a time when thousands of doctors already in the UK (including IMGs) are facing unemployment? As a taxpayer, I would be interested in knowing this. Why does the NHS keep paying these fees to academies and agencies for new IMGs when there is a UK NHS doctor workforce facing unemployment? These are legitimate questions that need answering as the NHS is publicly funded

Anyway, it’s Friday night so I’m off out ‘on the lash’ again 😂😂. These days that ‘s 2 Aperol Spritz and a pizza.

Did the poster not merely say that F1s were useless for much of their induction period?

F1s by definition are not a huge asset to the clinical team. They're there to learn primarily, at that stage.

Your response was not the response of any reasonable person.

Just stop with all the heightened emotion. It isn't doing you or anyone or anything else any good. Certainly not your 'cause'.

No one is insulting IMGs ?? Where are reading that ? But they are not needed so shouldn’t come -

that is so far from the truth and shows a complete lck of understanding of what has driven and sustained health care in this country for decades and will continue to be needed in the future.

You are insulting IMGS when you repost something which implies rightly or wrongly that intelligent indian graduates avoid the UK.So anyone who has come is by extension thick for coming.

@Sevillian I’ll reply how I like. Who on earth do you think you are 😂😂😂.

Yes, calling any of your colleagues, especially ones you are paid to train, is vile. Especially when you’ve quite obviously trained your PA. V v v vile. They are not children, they’ve done 5-6 years training and are often doing on calls over night. I think the consultants not training them are the useless ones,

@wannabewitch so I’m wrong to post an article from the Guardian ? Why ? Because you don’t agree with it ?