Junior Doctors Unemployment in August part 2

[PurpleFairyLights]

Following on from previous thread.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5337022-junior-doctors-unemployment-in-august?utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=share

Sorry but I'm afraid it would take more than your posts to frustrate me. Keep them coming 😂

I just find the over the top wording "attacks" really inappropriate.

Mums and I would like priority for UK MGs (ready to progress) - that is not what you were saying at the start.

Please could you respond to the other points:

1. It’s interesting that you feel it’s okay to ask other posters, “Are you a doctor then?” but refuse to talk about your own qualifications. The fact that you ask others means that you know medics are more qualified to speak on these matters compared to non-medics.

and

2. you asked me: "Please can you explain what you feel are good points Wannabe and Co have posted regarding UK not prioritising its own (ready to progress) medical graduates that will lead to 20,000 unemployed doctors in August" I responded with: this is (I believe) a good point: “Can you explain why you think specialty training should be open to the world? Every other country in the world prioritise their own graduates.

• I have never said it should, but I do think a percentage should be open to the world. Diversity is always an asset. Without it - where would we have got the Magdi Yacoub's of this world, Lord Darzi and many others.”

This comment shows that Wannabe does not and has not supported the idea that the UK should not prioritise UK grads.

I am not commenting on your responses about other professionals. That was included because it was part of the comment with the above quote. The above quote is what I'm trying to convey to you as my answer to your original question.

I'm trying to understand whether you are deliberately derailing comments that you know are valid or whether you are genuinely struggling to follow the thread.

I'm happy to try to explain this in a simpler way if it would be helpful.

Absolutely wannabewitch. It's been a completely bonkers mantra of 12,000 training places for 12,000 UK MGs. The surest way to get waiting lists down though - kill off the patients with incompetent doctoring.

I think this needs to be looked at in detail. How did the UK become the only country in the world to not prioritise UKMG and why has this been going on for so long leading to 60,000 applicants for 12,000 training posts?

The result is thousands of unemployed UKMG. The backlog will take years to clear and destroy many doctors careers.

Of course since seeing your subsequent comments this is probably not of interest to you.

It has always been that.

You know that is not what I meant. But in theory all 12,000 could be ready to progress (unlikely) but you have forgotten there will be doctors applying that did not apply for raining last yearc for reasons other than being "incompetent ". For example returning from maternity leave or OOP.

I don't need it explained in a simpler way. Attempting to insult my intelligence or questioning my mental capacity will not get you your reply about my profession.

I deliberately ignore parts of your more verbose posts deliberately.

I ask if people are doctors because I think they are not making sense.

So why is it okay for you to ask people about their roles when you're not willing to talk about yours? why would you have more knowledge than someone else who is also in an unrelated field?

What is verbose about me saying "this is the part that I agree with" in response to your question "what points have so and so made that you agree with"?

So this really 'shouty' thread that belongs to @PurpleFairyLights - no other opinions allowed is really about 'nasty foreigners taking our jobs'. You've done well - two threads later.

I ask but I don't insult them if they don't answer and dont harass them to answer multiple times..

You have asked me multiple times and insulted me several times. Take a wild guess why I would not be happy to disclose anything to you.

Join the suspected IMG club @Sevillian ! She's been trying to pretend for days that I'm part of some imagined BAPIO fifth column. This despite me reassuring her that I am not, I'm also not a doctor but I am married to one. I'm also allowed an (educated) opinion.

OK what would you suggest the answer is to the current problem of thousands of unemployed UKMGs in August?

Bear in mind UK is the only country that does not prioritise its own medical graduates.

Who is implying that? I have not mentioned them.

I didn’t intend to insult you, and I apologise that it’s how I came across, genuinely.

I was struggling to understand why you were asking me repeatedly “where have I said I’m attacking other professionals” when I didn’t say you did, it was part of the quote that I’d used to answer your question. I’d be keen to hear your response to that, as it does feel a bit like you’re avoiding it because it contradicts your comment.

Also, now you can see why people have been reluctant to engage with you when you’ve called people disgusting and vile, saying IMGs cheat on exams etc.

You need to check your facts I have never said anything about anyone cheating at exams. Please check the post.

Not sure about vile and disgusting so could you give the date and time of the post?

Regarding your comment about needing an enquiry to udnerstand how this has happened, it's already been explained to you how this has happened in thread number 1:

"Howisitonlymonday: Previously we did prioritise UK doctors for training posts. The current situation has arisen because, for many years, UK NHS Trusts were unable to fill many of their training posts. This was because UK graduates wanted to go off to Australia/ NZ/Canada for a few years, or wanted to train part-time, or wanted to do trust grade/locum posts until a very specific post became available. Trusts had to jump through a lot of hoops to employ an IMG, so it was disincentivised. Training posts have a significant service delivery element, so it had become very difficult to run safe rotas, especially in areas of most need (outside of the SE and major cities).

The Conservative government had threatened for some time to open up these posts so that IMGs (international medical graduates who have passed stringent UK medical exams and language tests) would have equal standing, and eventually they did it.

I don't think the DoH had any grasp of just how many experienced, well educated IMGs would apply for training posts - they are outcompeting our UK grads because they have years more experience, so on a points-based application/interview they can easily get the job, and there is also the phenomenon of the application portal getting saturated before UK grads have had chance to apply.

This policy needs reversing and quickly, but there is a little bit of me that thinks that UK doctors have been very happy to take advantage of the international jobs market when it suits them, and were very happy to go off to Australia rather than take a job elsewhere in the UK, but don't like it when the privilege is reversed."

There were a lot of slurs that IMGs cheated at exams by previous posters.

I m not sure how you interpret what I wrote as not being supportive of UKMGs. I have said a percentage should be for IMGs that is all. All 12000 should not be for 12000 UKMGS regardless.

Also there are not going to be 20000 UKMGS unemployed come August - there is considerable blurring of figures to make it appear worse than it is for UKMGs.

There was this.

Doctors are needed, even those ‘useless’ F1s. Unless you think PAs are easier to train (some consultants seem too). In which case we should just close all medical schools.

https://www.bmj.com/content/380/bmj.p125

But majority of IMGs are awesome. This mess is not their fault, with many of them caught up in the unemployment. But we should prioritise our own trained staff now, like every country in the world.

Want to play doctor ? Go to medical school. Obviously, only those ‘best’ ones.

When I got my number of the 8 jobs available - they appointed 1 spaniard, 1 greek, 2 Indian, 1 Pakistani, 1 Jordanian and 2 UKMGs

Some of the ideas on what went on i the past - are just not true

Whatever the history is. It really does need an enquiry as at the very least this reversal should have been monitored yearly not been allowed to explode to 60,000 applications for 12,000 jobs.

This can be seen looking at the yearly increase in applications. Last year it was 33,000 applications this year 60,000.

There needs to be some accountability.

Do you not feel embarrassed to admit that you ignore comments that disprove your points?

What disproves the point ? There are so many IMGs that locally trained doctors can’t get jobs. I’ve been busy so missed all the posts today.