Junior Doctors Unemployment in August part 2

[PurpleFairyLights]

Following on from previous thread.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5337022-junior-doctors-unemployment-in-august?utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=share

I did not need permission to start the thread.

Sorry what is wrong with the comment lawyers don't kill someone if they make a mistake? It is factual and show the responsibility doctors have.

The comment don't comment unless DC a doctor was aimed at someone whose DC is working in the city. How is that compatible? Doctors only havevone emoyer..

You know you don't have to read the thread if it is too much for you.

You equate ticking boxes as ready to progress, those of us in the profession know that is such a poor solo metric it is not safe.

"No one expects to go just get into training, but they do expect a job of some kind, as that’s what they were told would happen when they started."

The view is a guaranteed job be it training or not just because you are a UKMG. So better to employ a failing UKMG in any job because they are a UKMG than let a brilliant IMG get a job?

Are you saying ARCP and consultant references are floored? Surely clinical/educational supervisors should be raising concerns about individuals? Why is this not happening?

If you think it is a tick box exercise that is allowing doctors that are not ready to progress get into training places have you raised this unsafe practice? If not why not.

I am quite concerned about the tone of this post. Also that it is seeming to undermine UK post graduate training practices.

How would you know an IMG is brilliant ? Either they are in the UK following same ARCP etc processes orvyhey ate abroad which possibly harder to ascertain competence as will be different process to UK.

For context, the lawyer comment was a response to all the whataboutery/strawman arguments. (My child works in the city, is a lawyer etc and has to work loads of unpaid hours, doesn’t have a guaranteed career etc).

I am a 'mum' - so presumably I'm pushy and overinvested 🙄. I have a daughter who's just graduated from a London uni often mentioned in this thread. We are not rich, she went through state schools, she's worked all through sixth form and uni, I've gone back to an nhs post I'd left to help pay her way. She's worked her arse off to be in the top 10% of everything, inside the top 5% for many things, and in the top 2 for some things given the prizes she's been awarded. She's due to start her f1 at a London deanery down to pure luck given the random number thing. I guess also, given her academic ability and London uni, on here she'd be pegged as being crap with people but that's not what her placement reports would indicate.

I read these threads because I'm concerned about her future and want to understand the challenges she's going to face, so that I can support her. I'm old enough to know that what you read in the media rarely reflects the full reality of any situation so reading points of view from people who have different reference points to my own is helpful. It also gives me a better understanding of the challenges faced by the resident doctors I work alongside.

I see these as:
Competition Ratios for training posts. I don't thing that completing F2 should come with an automatic right to a training post, some are ready and some are not. But also some IMGs that are high point scorers on paper struggle in the nhs, adapting to the language and culture doesn't come easy for many and has a big impact on patient care. Allocating points for NHS experience would be such an easy way to level the playing field, and requiring IMGs to have some nhs experience would allow them to learn about the nhs (and the nhs to learn about them) before they gain a coveted training place.

Allocation of F1/F2 jobs. Yeah my dd got pretty much what she wanted - but the random number generator removes the motivation for med students to strive for excellence, if all they need to do is pass and get a random number. I know that the prizes and the research and the intercalation and the teaching may help later, but for the current crop the goalposts are being changed so frequently that who knows?

Pay. Loads written on this, but my MILs view is that resident doctors are lazy and greedy because that's what the mainstream media is telling her. So people who don't have a grandchild at med school probably think worse.

PAs. Clearly on this thread there are PA fans, and in my area of work we don't have any. But my family experience is not positive (two, sadly now one, oncology patients have had issues) and my dd has many observations of them. Running clinics and in theatre whilst leaving job lists for the residents. Prioritised for training over residents. Residents being pulled from teaching sessions while PAs still allowed to go. PAs dashing in to perform skills in front of residents and med students making it harder to develop skills and get things signed off. Lots of attitude and inverted snobbery from PAs towards residents and med students. The residents are always the ones told to 'be kind', when the majority of the comments and certainly the social media issues are in the opposite direction..,

I don't think my child should have guaranteed anything, so far she has been able enough and hardworking enough to get where she wants. But 60,000 applicants for 12,000 training jobs, crap pay, restricted training opportunities for those that actually get training jobs, £88k student debt a month before the course has even ended, public slating, why do such gifted young people put themselves through this? And the distain shown towards them by more experienced doctors on threads like these add another level of crap they need to wade through, I work in an area of healthcare with the ethos of 'each one, teach one' which doesn't seem to apply. I think I'll pop a couple of biscuits with our resident doctor's mug when it's my turn to make a brew next.

I’d love to know what counts as ‘overinvested’ when you worry, quite a lot actually, about your child being in over 100k debt, with unemployment being a not unlikely option for them?

But it's irrelevant to the point of "there are not enough training places for doctors. This is bad". The person was also talking about their consultant husband, but you didn't want to acknowledge that.

Replying to your other response to me:

"Sorry why are your comments aimed at mums and I alone? Why are you not asking others the same? For example, what did you think about the mediocre medical schools and medical students discussion? Completely off topic and unpleasant". I'm replying to you because you're calling people vile, disgusting, saying you don't think people should have opinions (despite neither of you actually working in the field) etc.

I'm assuming you're referencing: "It's easy to find out which are the best medical schools. Look at the Times Higher Education list of best medical schools 2025. The ones at the top are outstanding, the ones in the middle good and the ones at the bottom not so much. Look at their scores for research, that's the best measure.

• When there were very few medical schools it didn't matter which one you went to because they were all the same very high standard. Now with a proliferation of medical schools some are easier to get in to than others. I know it's not one of your truths, but prior attainment affects outcomes.
• Please don't tell me that every medical student is clever. They may be, but some are cleverer than others. The ones at the top medical schools will have far exceeded the minimum entry requirements."

I don't think this is untrue or unfair. All medical schools educate students to a high standard, and all are competitive; however, some are more competitive than others. For example, it's statistically easier to get into UEA compared to Glasgow, and it's easier to get into Glasgow than Cambridge. Similarly, statistically, getting into a lower-ranking med school is easier than getting into a higher-ranking uni for a different subject (acceptance for UEA medical school is 40%, acceptance for Cambridge physics is 20%, Sats at UCL is 30%).

"Mums and I would like priority for UK MGs (ready to progress) like every country in the world. I would also like to see an enquiry set up to find out how the UK got into this mess that will likely destroy a lot of doctors futures for years to come.".... posting on Mumsnet (several times) is going to do this, how?

Also, can you actually imagine a petition being started, not by one of the many medics in this position, but by one of their parents?

It was a horrible comment but I don't see complaints from wannabe and co being made about it. Meanwhile they are banging on about my comment about nurses taking less responsibility than doctors , not thinking PAs are the way to go in NHS,.lawyer comment or thinking that Wannabe has made inaccurate comments eg more jobs than ever available etc

My DC is so busy that we have not really discussed it other than vague plans and the offer that welcome to live back at home rent free. DC has always known I will support in anyway possible but DC just gets on with stuff.

I am concerned about the doctors that may not have the safety net of free accommodation in August.

Yet again you have put me in the category of being just a parent.

Why do you think that I can't start the petition based on my qualifications, profession and experience? I am a person in my own right alongside being a mother.

@pinkorange2

Because you have deliberately not stated your job, profession, qualification etc so it’s a fair assumption that whatever you do is not relevant to this thread. Unless you do work in healthcare? I’m happy to change my opinion and apologise if so.

You have also consistently ignored every good point everyone makes if it’s not in line with your view, which makes it difficult to engage in a conversation. You don’t actually seem to want other peoples opinions, or you’d at least consider them and not just ignore them and try to change the argument.

I am not prepared to disclose my profession or qualifications on a public forum and will not be goaded into disclosing them.

Please can you explain what you feel are good points Wannabe and Co have posted regarding UK not prioritising its own (ready to progress) medical graduates that will lead to 20,000 unemployed doctors in August?

This is what the thread is about but there have been many rabbit holes opening up.

And that’s fair enough, but that’s clearly because your job and profession is not relevant to the thread. No one is goading you, but if you don’t want to disclose then readers and commenters have no other ‘box’ to put you in other than parent.

You are blatantly mis-reporting about the points others have made. Regardless, I believe this is a good point:

“Can you explain why you think specialty training should be open to the world? Every other country in the world prioritise their own graduates.

• have never said it should, but I do think a percentage should be open to the world. Diversity is always an asset. Without it - where would we have got the Magdi Yacoub's of this world, Lord Darzi and many others.

Not one of my posts has said that I am not what I am - you just do not like my view and between you and mums have been beyond patronising, rude, derogatory and supercilious.

I agree with some of what you both have said, but not all. I firmly disagree with many of your solutions ad I absolutely do not support the attacks you have both made on other professions of which you appear to have limited knowledge.”

And again, you ignore good points and try to redirect the comments to avoid having to reflect or consider a valid point because it doesn’t fit with your view.

Attacks on other professions? Please give examples?

You are doing a cracking job of ruining your own thread here OP.

Not at all please tell me how I attacked other professionals? Please give examples.

PAs are professionals for one. They've been slagged off non stop across all the threads on this subject and yet are often much brighter and better educated than doctors. Especially true of the middling doctors emerging from the less competitive medical schools.

That was Wannabes comment I believe in reference to nurses and PAs etc. Are you not frustrated going around in circles?

You asked me which comments I agreed with, and I said this. Don’t pick up on one single point in it to try to derail the whole thing, because you know the points they made relevant to the thread are spot on.

“Can you explain why you think specialty training should be open to the world? Every other country in the world prioritise their own graduates.

• have never said it should, but I do think a percentage should be open to the world. Diversity is always an asset. Without it - where would we have got the Magdi Yacoub's of this world, Lord Darzi and many others.”

Instead of acknowledging this, you try to dredge up a “but when did I say that” about a minor point at the end. And, Wannabe explained this to you in the subsequent posts, which you again ignored and derailed as you had no good response.

I also think it’s interesting that you feel it’s okay to ask other posters “are you a doctor then?” but refuse to talk about your own qualifications. The fact that you ask others means that you know medics are more qualified to speak on these matters compared to non-medics.

Nurses too. And in fact there are plenty of nurses who are significantly academically cleverer than those same doctors and have to put doctors right on a regular basis. They've been slagged off too, after an initial and patronising 'they're wonderful' comment.

I said nurses don't take as much responsibility as doctors. This is true.

I said I don't believe in PA model which I don't. I am not aline in this.

Why are you calling these attacks?

Excellent post, bang on the money. Thanks pinkorange2.

You come across as not really respecting UK medical training at all.

Your continuous efforts to undermine UKMGs is starting to look odd.

I think that that point is arguable. And some doctors are very ready to throw nurses under the bus to cover up their own mistakes. So I would argue that a huge amount of responsibility is shouldered by nurses. Possibly you're stuck in the Carry On era.

Is this a veiled accusation that I might be an 'IMG'? 😂

I'm afraid that there really are rather a lot of not great doctors out there and it shouldn't be blasphemy to acknowledge it. Of course those doctors shouldn't become consultants. I'd far rather be treated by a good IMG, PA or nurse.