Junior Doctors Unemployment in August part 2

[PurpleFairyLights]

Following on from previous thread.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5337022-junior-doctors-unemployment-in-august?utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=share

Astonishingly few doctors have shown support for you on these threads, in fact.

I'm not sure from your posts and your quotes that you ever read anything in depth mumsneedwine. It's all headlines with a massive dollop of misunderstanding:

Given what Wes Streeting is actually saying at the moment in his various speeches to various interested bodies, I would tend not to be looking to sunlit uplands for those medical students who aren't especially competitive in terms of applications for further training. I think very little will change for that part of the recent/current/future cohorts. Maybe an easier route to a LED post but not a greatly enhanced chance of getting training to progress far up the ladder.

But tbf, I don't quite get the correlation between lack of holidays and not being able to go to eg Cambridge, Oxford, Imperial, UCL etc. Could you explain? I've not heard of this exclusion before (I’m off on a school trip to the seaside. With ‘those students’ who won’t get another holiday this year, so will only be able to go to ‘those Unis’). Something perhaps to raise at the actual WP conference which is happening in a few days time, if you really think it true?

Calling someone a 'vile human' reflects on you and you alone mumsneedwine. You should be ashamed, especially as a teacher.

The thread was started as it is not common knowledge that UK doctors will be unemployed in August due to ridiculous competition ratios now UK specialty training has been opened up to the world.

The post followed other posts started by needmoresleep I still do not understand why people arguing against mumsneedwine and myself who were asking for prioritsation of UKMGs like 195 other countries and taking the UK back to pre-2019 status were widening the argument to involve PAs, mediocre universities, doctors not good enough etc etc while ignoring that 60,000 applications for 12,000 specialty training posts was the problem.

What it did acheive was dilute the discussion on the key points and many people were probably put off commenting on this thread.

I have never disclosed my profession but there have been comments before about "mummies". I thought we had moved on from those sort of opinions.

Not a strange comment . It was a view formed by some of Wannabe's comments. You will notice some doctors have also called out Wannabes's comments but received no reply.

Thanks for the unwanted parenting advice.

Can you explain how an unemployed doctor can improve their application for higher specialty training when they are unemployed? This has not been the situation before. Doctors has the luxury of F3 etc. There are very few jobs now and the ate attracting hundreds of applications.

Wannabe has said there are a lot of jobs available. This is not correct.

mums- you have mixed my messages up. I have been consistent in my opinion and criticism of your unwarranted attack on PAs, IMGs and anyone else you fancy.

It was you who coined the phrase the unpopular deaneries. I have never sneered at any hospital or medical school.

WE all agree unemployed doctors are not gret thing - what many of us disagree with are your solutions and belief that they have proven themselves by getting into medical school, passing out and having a portfolio that ticks a box, means you should be guaranteed a job for life - from specialist training to consultant.

And who starts a post with 'Ladies,'? Are we back in the 1950s?

Exactly. There are quite a few posts with a 1950s vibe and not in a good way.

Purple and mums - you both started attacking and blaming in a fairly derogatory manner other allied health professionals and various other people for the current situation.
Those of us who work in healthcare recognise the value of all the cogs in the wheel and are not insulting people who just like doctors worked hard to get where they are and work hard at their job in helping patients.

i choose to defend the reputation of those being attacked rather than turning a blind eye to misinformation and poor behaviour.

Debating doctor unemployment this week with a wide group of professional not all in health care - one comment was 1:5 odds of getting a job is quite good! So some people outside of medicine do not see there is a problem.

There is a problem that UKMGs are not prioritised resulting in doctor unemployment. Doctors that cost 250k for UK to train due to worldwide complication. These are 25 year old in competition with IMGs that have been doctors far longer. Therefore points based system works in IMGs favour.

I don't think I said anything about allied health professions except doctors take more responsibility than nurses. Also did not say much about PAs but what is the point when they cannot prescribe or order scans? Also cannot see undifferentiated patients in GP and the GP has to check their work. Do GPs get protected time to cover checking what PAs have done? Unlikely.

Some Royal Colleges seem to be concerned about PAs too.

You mentioned there had never been so many jobs for doctors. Can you let us know where you are seeing these jobs?

1:5 is not ok when this has been created by influx of worldwide applications?

Can you explain why you think specialty training should be open to the world? Every other country in the world prioritise their own graduates.

So waiting lists of 7 million. Low doctor numbers per capita and unmoved doctors en masse at 250k a pop.

Possibly because F2s and ST2s may not be the typical mumsnet demographic although I do acknowledge there are plenty of doctors with children but possibly not at F2s/ST2s level so facing unemployment but could be wrong.

Yes, and at no point has anyone disagreed that we should prioritise UK grads. But your posts come across as if implying that every UK Dr should automatically be entitled to a training place, which is not the case (and has never been the case, speciality training has always been competitive, just not to this level). It’s possible that you didn’t mean to come across as thinking this, but I think that’s where the confusion lies.

The discussion is being diluted because of the way you’re responding. People are likely put off commenting because this thread isn’t a discussion, it’s you being rude to anyone who expresses a view you don’t agree with.

The only person who’s mentioned ‘mummies’ was you as far as I can see, but happy to be pointed to the original comment if I’m wrong. People are (reasonably) pointing out that your opinion (as a parent of a doctor) is not as informed as other people who are actually doctors. Unless you are a medic or surgeon, but I assume you would have said by now.

There are many ways your child can improve their application for next year aside from getting an f3 job (which is less likely to improve chances anyway because it’s essentially doing the same things you did last year). Doing research and gaining publications is one option, or exploring a PhD (which many surgeons do in order to make themselves competitive, even prior to the current situation.)

You have a similar attitude to many I see on Reddit, which is “the world is made up of doctors, and people who weren’t clever enough to be doctors”. It’s great you’re proud of your child, but you seem to have made their career a large part of your identity. Again, happy to be corrected if you, yourself, are a doctor.

And saying it’s an unknown issue: there are 4 threads about this coming up in my “similar threads” section. People would be more likely to respond if you took a breath and tried to consider where other people are coming from before replying with anger.

I have never implied all UKMGs should progress to specialty training, that would not be safe. Please highlight my comment that you believe I said that.

i dont think calling people out when necessary is rude. I am also entitled to hold my opinions regarding Wannabe that were formed by their posts.

Why would I want to disclose my profession? You may notice that very few disclose their profession so why is there a different rule for me? Are you a doctor?

I also have the right to think there is something else going on with the attacks mums and I have experienced.

If I have time I will find the mummies mention. Mum's may remember it better.

Can you explain why you think specialty training should be open to the world? Every other country in the world prioritise their own graduates.

• have never said it should, but I do think a percentage should be open to the world. Diversity is always an asset. Without it - where would we have got the Magdi Yacoub's of this world, Lord Darzi and many others.

So waiting lists of 7 million. Low doctor numbers per capita and unmoved doctors en masse at 250k a pop.

• No they are not great, but automatically training people who ae not up to the grade, simply because they went to medical school and are o the treadmill is not an answer either. That lowers the standard of healthcare.

Not one of my posts has said that I am not what I am - you just do not like my view and between you and mums have been beyond patronising, rude, derogatory and supercilious.

I agree with some of what you both have said, but not all. I firmly disagree with many of your solutions ad I absolutely do not support the attacks you have both made on other professions of which you appear to have limited knowledge.

No one, absolutely no one has advocated for guaranteed training positions for every FY2. Let alone progressing those who aren’t ready/substandard. In fact it’s been said (at least 3 times by me alone) that that is NOT what is being advocated here.

put it alongside posts that start with 'mums' I guess...

Attacks on other professions. Huge exaggeration. My opinion is an informed one. I don't think PAs are the way for the NHS to go. I am not alone in this opinion. Nurses do take less responsibility than doctors.

I have never offered the solution that all UKMGs should progress.I have talked about ready to progress doctors without a job in August. Why does this keep coming up? It is incorrect. I am saying 7 million on waiting list with thousands of unemployed UKMG (that are ready to progress). Do you think a high proportion of the doctors that did not get into specialty training are not ready to progress rather than the huge influx of applications that have caused doctor unemployment?

Also the statements about mediocre medical schools. That was very odd.

Do you have any problem with the PA role in its current UK form? Can you see any risks with how boundaries are blurring?

It’s not a specific comment, I think it’s the tone of the thread, implying that UK grads are automatically better than IMGs. Although I do apologise, as a lot of the comments I don’t agree with are from the other poster here, not you.

However, you have to admit (again, this comment wasn’t made by you, but to highlight why people are disagreeing with the thread) but saying “IMGs can buy their way into training” is inherently offensive. Yes, it has happened in the past, but UK grads can also cheat.

Some of the discussion around this sounds like you’re both implying that this is why the IMGs are getting jobs, when in the vast vast majority of cases, they’re just stronger applicants. Again, I get it’s disappointing to accept that someone you love who worked hard just wasn’t as good an applicant as others, but it’s the truth. It’s also true (as everyone has stated) that the UK should prioritise UK grads. We can’t, however, change this policy.

You don’t need to disclose your profession at all. But it obviously makes a difference to your credibility on this matter, especially when several other doctors (including the main person you have an issue with) is. I’m not, but I am a psychologist (the NHS also paid +£250,000 to train me, I faced 10/1 odds of getting onto training and I also couldn’t get a job after I qualified, so I honestly do understand the position your child is in).

You have the right to think something else is going on, but I think, based on probability, people probably don’t want to comment on a thread where two people seem to be having their own discussion and being rude (e.g calling people vile) to anyone who disagrees.

Especially when it’s (at least) the 4th thread on this topic. What more is there really to say? It’s shit that people are in this position. You also said on your last thread (to someone whose husband is a consultant and who was sharing her opinion) “why are you on this thread if you DC are not doctors?). So you don’t really seem want peoples opinions unless they agree with you.

It’s worth thinking about whether responding to people in a different way might help you to get your point across more.

The reality is this is not likely to be changed before October 2025. It will take several years for any policy changes made now to take affect.

If you do have time to find that comment I would appreciate it as it would change my view a bit. Obviously it’s not right to disregard people’s opinions in that way (and is quite sexist).

Well here is one example. It's 'mums' rather than 'mummies' but the 'over invested' prefix more than sets the tone.

oddandelsewhere · 03/06/2025 19:13

I think the trouble is that the over invested mums on here didn't realise that graduating from medical school doesn't guarantee a job for life.

Thank you.

My only conclusion is the constant misrepresentation that mum's and I are advocating for all UKMGs to progress (even if not ready) undermines the validity of our argument regarding priority for UKMGs for training posts. It also looks like we are advocating for an unsafe practice.

Thank you for finding that.

It’s not a particularly kind comment but I don’t necessarily disagree with the “over-invested” bit.

One 40 page thread, one 15 page thread, talking about starting a petition, getting involved in lobbying groups and discussion of scouring the R/Doctors is quite a lot of investment for people who are not doctors themselves.

Ive not looked at all of it but I’ve seen comments to the effect of “IMGs buy their way into training” “PAs are useless”, “you shouldn’t comment unless your DC is a doctor” “Lawyers don’t kill someone if they’re tired”. People are “talking crap” “disgusting” or “vile” for disagreeing (even doctors).

Sorry - over 2 threads the constant theme has been all F2s should progress to further training. or have a job

12000 medical schools - 12000 training posts being quoted constantly.

Some of us disagree

Why not just stick to that point then rather than escalating to be rude to people who disagree? It’s fine for people to have different opinion but you don’t need to put down other career or name call.

it’s reasonable to just say “this thread is actually about x, not about y, but I understand your comment”.

Sorry why are your comments aimed at mums and I alone? Why are you not asking others the same? For example, what did you think about the mediocre medical schools and medical students discussion? Completely off topic and unpleasant.

I really don't need any advice on how to reply to posts. My opinion on Wannabe was formed from her posts and my experience (not as a mother) .

I findcthe "over invested" very derogatory but great if you think it is acceptable.

Mums and I would like priority for UK MGs (ready to progress) like every country in the world. I would also like to see an enquiry set up to find out how the UK got into this mess that will likely destroy a lot of doctors futures for years to come.

Sorry did not think I would have to add ready to progress as thought it went without saying but clearly not.

If a doctor is not ready to progress they are not able to apply to specialty training.via Oriel.