Junior Doctors Unemployment in August part 2

[PurpleFairyLights]

Following on from previous thread.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5337022-junior-doctors-unemployment-in-august?utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=share

Sad isn’t it. That some consultants really don’t understand the issues. Let’s hope they listen and help soon, after all, they are paid to train their residents, not PAs.

Yes. Not the point.

A consultant who is awesome.

https://www.bmj.com/content/382/bmj.p2051

Could you explain what you mean wannabewitch? Who is the supposed consultant, and what are the issues that in your view they don't seem to get?

@Sevillian so why make it ?? I commented on the thread title days ago ? What was your point since you brought it up. They are not junior, they are the doctor most likely saving your life. 9 years post qualification. Nothing junior about them.

Don't be ridiculous mumsneedwine it's just terminology. Why the drama all of the time? Chill out, it must be exhausting.

Also, F1s are very obviously massively junior. Frequently have to be spoon fed by the nursing staff or even HCAs. Those on the cusp of being consultants are clearly not wet behind the ears. But omg: the drama.

It’s loaded terminology. Why do you think it was changed?

How on earth did the doctors in question manage all the years that the junior terminology was current? It's very minor in the scheme of things.

It’s not minor. It is inaccurate and is misleading to the general public, a number of whom have believed that junior doctors are inexperienced trainees, which has suited politicians against real pay restoration.

mumsneedwine - health professionals, which include doctors are expected to teach and be taught by any health professional or allied health professional. I teach nurses, doctors, PAs, physios, OTs and in return I am taught by them - it is a mutual passage of knowledge, experience. My skills and knowledge ae not only for the benefit of doctors, they are for the whole health team to care holistically for the patient.

If you and the doctors you know only expect to be taught by Fellow doctors, then they will be poorer doctors for the experience.
You display an unplesant condescension for anyone in the health care setting besides doctors - we all need each other to do our jobs.

And just so you know my NHS contract does not mention teaching as a compulsory part of my job plan.

The doctor most likely saving your life - an F2. Some will do but the most likely, I doubt it. Your absolute belief that what you are told is true with no embellishment is concerning

It's really not that offensive Hollibobcat.

Sevillian - I am the supposed consultant, whom Purple and mums have questioned, attempted to be litte and scorned my qualifications because I dare to express an opinion that they disagree with. i lso hve called out the rabid blaming of PAs, older doctors and IMGS for being the cause of the current situation.

That opinion is that not every F2 should be automatically entitled to a training job, as this breeds complacency and lowers standards. Also not everyone is ready to progress at the same time and do not know what they want to do.

Thanks wannabewitch. Strongly agree with all that.

mumsneedwine has that helped clear up your misunderstanding? I'm really mystified at how you can misinterpret so much.

Yes but that’s be an F1 is a doctor in training. They are completely useless for the first third of à rotation. More work than benefit in the second third, and start to contribute a bit in the final third, by which point they’re off and the cycle repeats for F2.

PAs have a valuable role. If I were a patient I’d rather have a PA put in my central line than a JD.

Part if the remuneration of a JD is the apprenticeship. But this is conveniently forgotten.

Where did I say it was offensive? I said it was misleading. It is.

Doctors will unemployed in 6 weeks. Waiting lists at 7 million +. People want to see doctors, not non doctors, doctors want to see patients. I have no idea how any of this a controversial statement for any doctor.

@wannabewitch I have never questioned your being a doctor, I have questioned the sneering attitude you have to resident doctors and students who go to certain Unis.

Headway being made. Changes are coming, the old guard will retire soon and the current cohort of resident doctors will never ladder pull again (or supervise PAs).

The sun is shining, my bingo card of insults is full and I’m off in a school trip to the seaside. With ‘those students’ who won’t get another holiday this year, so will only be able to go to ‘those Unis’.

Thank you to all the very many doctors who have shown support. It’s been very inspiring.

And really ?? F1s are ‘useless’. You vile human, this is how you think of your colleagues. Useless. Wow. Says it all.

@Mandy19764 “ They are completely useless for the first third of à rotation. More work than benefit in the second third, and start to contribute a bit in the final third, by which point they’re off and the cycle repeats for F2.“

Why is that true for FY1 and no other ‘green’ HCP, like nurses, PAs etc? How is a first-day-on-job PA useful, and a FY1 useless? Why is a PA who is inexperienced at placing a central line better than a FY1 in the same position?

Also @Mandy19764 I think you’ll find that increasing numbers of medical students are experienced HCAs as they are either doing the training as part of their medical school studies via an apprenticeship (I know this is an option in Bristol and many other schools too) or they’re doing it themselves to fund their studies, and get ward experience earlier. Obviously being a HCA is a very different role to being an F1 but I’m sure the experience is helpful for all number of reasons.
And it was the delightful F1 that my son remembers after he was in resus, and then as an in-patient, after a traumatic injury last year. She was wonderful, seemed to be on duty for the entire time we were there (just over 2 weeks) and was infinitely better at patient management than the haughty and ineffective consultant, who constantly swanned in and out, telling people off and sounding very superior, whilst actually doing very little to support and/or listen to her patient. A&E consultant was excellent though. Being in a (major London teaching) hospital 24/7 for 2 weeks was eye-opening.

@Matisser Yes, my daughter is now a HCA and has done a number of shifts, she’s just done 1st year. She was one of about a quarter of her cohort offered the opportunity. I think they’re rolling it out to all of them next year.

The term junior is certainly a misnomer, at some point surely. You don’t hear of junior PAs. Or junior nurses?

Then you are not training your resident doctors very well. You keep calling them junior which says it all. You prefer PAs and obviously train them instead. That ladder has v firmly been removed.

@W0tnow you get lots of advanced nurses etc, which they are. But you never get an advanced doctor. Even after 9 years some people still like to call them junior 🤷‍♀️

@Mandy19764 if you are a doctor, and if this is your belief, then why are you not fighting to stop rotational training ? You did it and I bet people trained you !

You didn’t, but the original poster did say “You come across as disliking doctors. I suspect you are not a doctor but work with them.”. This is strange attitude as it seems neither you or OP are doctors yourself.

Obviously it’s not right that many doctors are facing unemployment. It’s not right that many nurses, psychologists and AHPs are also facing unemployment. I don’t think many people would disagree with this.

I think there’s a good argument for prioritising UK health professional grads for UK jobs.

However, this whole thread is really strange. What will posting this (and arguing with people here) achieve? It’s not going to impact the policy decisions and most people are already aware of this issue as it’s being reported widely.

OP, I understand it’s disappointing when your child isn’t able to progress despite putting in hard work.

However, the reality is that they were not as competitive as applicant as others. Yes, some of these were international candidates with years of experience (although you also accused them of cheating on exams). There were also many UK surgical trainees who did progress. The best thing your child can do is work hard this year to try to become more competitive next year.

I understand is hard, but when I didn’t get a place on training in my own field (roughly acceptance ratio of 1 in 10) the last thing I would have wanted was for my parent to be taking up arms on Mumsnet and scrolling through the Reddit sub for my profession (and certainly not starting a petition on behalf of a professions that they’re not in).

What actually helped was having a shoulder to cry on, and someone to encourage me to better myself for the next round of applications when I was ready and had been moping for slightly too long (which I was successful at).