Junior Doctors Unemployment in August part 2

[PurpleFairyLights]

Following on from previous thread.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5337022-junior-doctors-unemployment-in-august?utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=share

Not at all. Not sure where you got that from.

I did not say that researchers were better lecturers than core medical school lecturers. I think that is your assumption.

I have never said Oxford/Cambridge medical school is better as that is not my impression.

I thought they used to only do their pre-clinical years at Oxford/Cambridge then go off to do their clinical years elsewhere but that may have changed.

And that means the graduates are superior because…?

How does quality of research reflect quality of teaching/graduates?

So the 5 “best” medical schools (as defined by research quality as per Times HE list) is:

1. Bristol
2. Glasgow
3. Oxford
4. Imperial
5. Leicester

Actually not what I was expecting - only one London uni and no Cambridge. And a nice spread geographically, so something for everyone.

btw, I’m not insinuating that these are the “best”, but was curious as to what the data showed

When my DC was choosing which medical schools to apply to. Curriculum and location were the considerations. Not research.

Now DC is a doctor they are involved in research.

Can I just thank you all for the amusement you are giving the admissions staff here. We are sharing the best quotes and making a PowerPoint of them to give to students to demonstrate the ridiculous ideas some people have.

Glad you are enjoying. I have been laughing too. You could not make some of this stuff up!

Can I just thank you all for the amusement you are giving the admissions staff here. We are sharing the best quotes and making a PowerPoint of them to give to students to demonstrate the ridiculous ideas some people have

Sure.

Must be a tiny affair today, given the upcoming major admissions event.

The thought of sharing MN posts at a professional event is.... interesting.

You are really embarrassing yourself now. How can anyone take you seriously when you seem so unprofessional and incapable of considering alternative opinions beyond your own narrow viewpoint.

Please tell me how you would solve the problem of unemployed UK mefical graduates due to 60,000 applications for 12,000 jobs other than prioritising UK graduates?

I agree that there should be some prioritisation for UK graduates, though it’s complex and shouldn’t be a guarantee of jobs when competencies are not met, just like any professional job.

I disagree with the childish way you are contributing to the discussion.

We are talking about UKMGs ready to progress being given priority.

So what do you mean by "some prioritisation"?

Which bit is complex?

@Matisser absolutely. Those universities which you identified as doing well for research are also the ones whose graduates do best further down the line at professional exams. Only Glasgow from your research heavy list isn't in the top 10 for passes in the Royal college exams.
All students graduate with the same degree, set by their own institution . Almost invariably they all pass, although the degrees aren't classified. At that point they all have the same qualification. @PurpleFairyLights says that she thinks that all medical degrees are equal, but that is not the case. When junior doctors sit their professional exams, which are national and notoriously difficult (In order to maintain standards) there are differences between the pass rates of graduates from different medical schools. The ones who do best at MRCS, FRCA, MRCOG, MRCGP, MRCPaeds and MRCP :

Have high prior attainment

Attend a highly ranked university ( this is obviously linked to the prior attainment)

Do an intercalated degree.

The graduates from more highly ranked medical schools also have fewer GMC sanctions.

It is neither snobby not elitist to point this out, although that is almost certainly what I will be called. We have to stop selling the illusion to 18 year olds that all medical degrees are the same, and that they will progress seamlessly through the system. They may do, and some obviously will, but for others it might be an uphill struggle.

To add, nowhere in this post have I called anyone or any institution rubbish. Mum's need wine is always quick to baselessly accuse me of that.

Intercalated degrees would add a hefty chuck to student debt, no? My daughter was all for doing one, until she did the maths.

So, the UKs ‘mediocre’ universities… how do they rank against the universities training the IMGs?

I don’t know what prior attainment is.

I’m also going to point out (again) that those of us who are concerned about the current system have never advocated for “seamless” progression. Or ‘guaranteed jobs.’ Over the last few threads we’ve heard about doctors in the past working 120 hour weeks back in the day blah blah blah. And other anecdotes with the veiled assumption that today’s grads are inferior and just want an easy ride. I still have zero understanding of why people would support a free-for-all application system for training positions. And why no one is asking questions about potential profiteering going on under the current system?

@W0tnow the intercalated degree might have been a good investment if it helped her get a job. As to foreign medical schools I'm afraid I haven't got a clue which are good or bad!

Hoo-fucking-ray!

Let’s hope it is effective immediately. And ‘prioritised’ means what is implied.

That’s progress

Exactly.

Has anyone read the posts on Reddit that have mentioned that need priority for UK graduates and no grandfathering otherwise the backlog caused by years of increased applications will never clear.

Well I would hold off celebrating until this part of the plan is published and analysed.

There's a good deal of ambiguity in what's been said, clearly intentionally.

No-one is celebrating. Thousands of doctors will be unemployed in a few weeks. Next year there will be the UK grads that did not get a training number this year plus the outgoing F2s.

Someone mentioned there should be an investigation.

Apologies. I took Hoo-fucking-ray! to be a celebratory exclamation.

There's nothing to investigate is there?

Yes. I read it, which prompted me to edit my post. I’m cautiously optimistic. Very cautiously.

@Sevillian It kinda was celebratory. Then I had a “if it sounds too good to be true….etc, moment.”

I think there is quite a lot to investigate actually. How on earth we were allowed to get into this mess, and have there been any conflicts of interest along the way.

If you look at the first thread there were some very interesting posts where possible conflicts of interests were mentioned.

Surely this mess and how it came about needs to be looked at?