Junior Doctors Unemployment in August part 2

[PurpleFairyLights]

Following on from previous thread.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5337022-junior-doctors-unemployment-in-august?utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=share

You literally couldn’t re-apply, as you would have too much experience:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_Training_Application_Service

There was one opportunity for experienced SHOs to apply in 2007, and after that all posts in all specialties were meant to be run-through, and earmarked for people who had just finished foundation training. You could not have more than two years of post-graduate experience when you applied for ST1 - your application would be automatically rejected. There was not meant to be a further point of entry at ST2, ST3, etc.

Obviously they backtracked on that in subsequent years, and also split core training from higher specialist training. But in 2007 when it was introduced and my colleague killed herself, you were appointed as an ST1 in cardiology and were guaranteed a run through post to ST7. You may not remember medical unemployment, but it certainly existed - I was unemployed and left the country, and so did at least 50% of my colleagues on the medical rotation in my hospital.

That is why there were protest marches through London, judicial reviews, etc.

Not all medical schools accept only the best and the brightest. Not all medical schools graduate only the best and the brightest.

Having a level of intelligence that gets you into an average to below average medical.school isn't the same as having the brains to get you into the best regarded medical schools.

And there is no either/ or when it comes to manner. You're determined to plead the case for mediocre graduates of mediocre schools, asserting that they have something special that makes them superior to grads of top flight medical schools, that the top grads of the top schools couldn't possibly be able to relate well to patients.
Well it ain't necessarily so.

They all have to get at least 3 grade A at A level and at least 10 A* in GCSE.

Which UK medical schools would you suggest school leavers should apply to and which they should avoid? Would be good to know which UK medical schools are seen as mediocre? Or is your comparison of medical schools worldwide?

I am wondering if there are statistics that show which univerty graduates are more likely to get a training post? Do they get extra points on the application depending on.which university they went to?

Apology if misunderstood your post. Are you saying doctors that did not get a training post this year may be because they are mediocre and went to a mediocre medical school?

What impact do you think 60,000 applicants worldwide for 12,000 UK training places has had on doctor unemployment?

@LemondrizzleSharkthanks for sharing and highlighting this.

similarly I think the rules will change to pre 2019 re: prioritising UK graduates.

So back then, could you not apply for a stand alone non training post either?

in addition, did you complete your training in Canada?

😂😂😂😂 and we are called unpleasant ? Have I gone part time ? Good to know.

For those calling us rude, we are just responding in kind. Read this, and the elitist sneering at my students and maybe you’ll understand why we hit back.

However I’m at a conference today with doctors and admissions, for a WP day - I will be sure to share the list of acceptable Unis around. Should make morning coffee interesting.

Have a lovely day BAPIO. We know you are watching 👀

PS large 6th forms can have 3,000 students. And Trusts can be 6 schools. Good people understand education as little as they know about medicine.

And assume no one has heard of alumni.

Insult me all you want if it makes you feel better about yourself. But doctor unemployment is a reality.

Can someone help me out by finishing these sentences?

The mediocre med schools in the UK are…… .

They are mediocre because…. .

Post FY2 training positions should be open to any qualified IMG applicant in the world because….. .

I’m just trying to keep it simple. Don’t ask me why I think every single post FY2 should absolutely automatically be allocated a training position. I don’t think anyone has said that. There is a gaping chasm between a 100% iron clad guaranteed career and opening the market to global competition.

Would you mind asking if anyone has heard this?

I do not think there are two tier ratings for medical school. My impression was that it waa a comparison between international medical schools and UK medical schools with the exception of Oxbridge were mediocre. Could be wrong.

I don't think government would be happy with this as were they not trying to widen access to medicine for state school children from a disadvantaged background? Surely we don't want to go back to the days that being a doctor is for privileged few?

Seconded.

In the UK there has been great work widening participation in medicine to those from a disadvantaged background. They are not mediocre.

I don't think government would be happy with this as were they not trying to widen access to medicine for state school children?

Bizarrely a) state school students can be fizzlingly intelligent too and therefore b) they can get into the best medical schools.

I think my above reply covers your most recent post too Purple.

I'm astonished by the idea that less well off students all have to bunk down in the weaker medical schools - why on earth would you think that?

The way you are portraying this mediocre medical school argument looks like a two tier system has evolved. These systems are likely to be unfair on those from disadvantaged backgrounds. I am not questioning their intelligence or ability just that an elitist attitude to certain medical schools is not appropriate.

https://www.medschools.ac.uk/news/new-report-shows-increase-in-students-from-disadvantaged-backgrounds-attending-medical-school

Are you willing to disclose the medical schools you think are mediocre?

IMGs are key in changing the culture of the NHS though. While our technical medical education is robust, though not world leading, the NHS culture of cover up and self protection needs doctors with broader international experience to continue to challenge it. We will all be worse off if the NHS continues to be inwardly focussed!

1. It's easy to find out which are the best medical schools. Look at the Times Higher Education list of best medical schools 2025. The ones at the top are outstanding, the ones in the middle good and the ones at the bottom not so much. Look at their scores for research, that's the best measure.
2. When there were very few medical schools it didn't matter which one you went to because they were all the same very high standard. Now with a proliferation of medical schools some are easier to get in to than others. I know it's not one of your truths, but prior attainment affects outcomes.

Cheating to quote I know, and a third outing for these two paragraphs posted by oddandelsewhere. But they're extremely easy to understand.

an elitist attitude to certain medical schools is not appropriate

It most certainly is, if we want the best and brightest doctors in our NHS. You're leading with a false premise about inclusion.

You know that is not what I am saying. The faux astonishment gave me a laugh.

I am of the belief that a medical school place is to be celebrated no matter where it is in the UK. I don't believe there are "weaker" medical schools in the UK I think they are equal (apart from prestige of Oxbridge). So why do you think I am suggesting students from a disadvantaged background "have to bunk down in the weaker medical schools" when I did not say that and I think all medical schools are equal?

Elite systems are not appropriate especially in medical education. This is why privately educated people were more likely to get into Oxbridge or medical school because state schools mostly cannot match the resources available in private schools. This is why people like @mumsneedwine are worth their weight in gold.

UK needs to prioritise its own graduates like 195 countries do. We need to go back to pre-2019 status right now.

60,000 applicants for 12,000 training posts. UK doctors have 1:5 chance of progressing their career with a training number.

The Times list is a student satisfaction survey.

If they have passed medical school exams they have proved they are worthy of working as a doctor in the UK.

The Times list has one column for student satisfaction. Ignore that. Look, as I suggested in the quote above, at the score for research . The best and most prestigious universities score highest for research.

When looking for a medical school potential students would be more interested in the course etc not research.

Well they shouldn't be. Research is the life blood of an academic institution.

Research is something to consider once a qualified doctor.

As the competition is so fierce students apply to universities they like or have a good chance of getting in to. Why would they care about research record of a university they may never get into?

The quality of research will reflect the quality of the teaching. No one is expecting the students to do research (but it helps if they do) The people scoring highly for the research at the top universities are the same people who will be teaching.

The research staff usually give a few sessions in a year but are not the core staff that are teaching day in and day out.

All medical schools in the UK are of an excellent standard and capable of teaching students well so they qualify as doctors.

Well, you've just made the case for the added value of being taught at Oxford and Cambridge.