To say your child isn’t being bullied they have poor social skills

[SpaceRaiders]

DD has a “friend” within her group who is just really quite unpleasant. There’ve been no end of issues since the start, due to this child being an entitled brat. She’s recently asked DD what she’ll be buying her for her birthday, she asked for an item that costs over £100, Dd told her no. She brags and lies over very silly things and can’t stand seeing anyone get acknowledged for good work etc. She gets incredibly jealous and possessive over the girls being friends with each other. And will actively try to manipulate the girls against each other. It all quite toxic. And inevitably when she doesn’t get her way, her mum messages the other mums to step in because she’s feeling left out.

Naturally the girls are finding her intolerable. I’ve had words with the mum, I had to establish a very firm boundary with her for something unrelated. Subsequently I’ve not extended any further invites to her child outside school.

We’re all just waiting for the inevitable call from the school accusing all the girls of bullying. School will likely not manage this properly as this child is as sweet as pie in front of teachers. She’s vying to be head girl. For context she’s an only child and undiagnosed ASD.

I’m putting my hard hat on here, but ND is really no excuse for poor behaviour! And I say this as a parent of ND girls.

Naturally the girls are finding her intolerable.

Why are they still friends with her (or as you put it "friends")? I could understand if some of the girls disliked her but others still wanted her in the group, but if they all feel the same way it's time to move on. That's not unusual at all around that age. If they are keeping her in the group and calling her their friend while they secretly all dislike her and prefer to (and usually find ways to) do things together but without her, there may actually be bullying going on, even if the other girls don't all intend to do it or realise they are doing it. If this continues and you do get a call from the school, please take what they have to say seriously rather than dismissing it in advance.

My only child is lovely, I get compliments from other parents on her behaviour all the time (it’s not me, she’s just like that). She also gets loads of positive feedback from her sports coaches and teachers for being friendly and working hard.

Really annoys me when people assume being an only makes you an asshole.

Back on topic, sometimes people can’t clearly how children interact with others. I would just tell school she’s demanding expensive presents and is a bit overbearing with the other children. Teachers have probably seen it all. I has to ask for DD to be placed in a separate class from her “best friend” and the teachers completely understood what I was concerned about,

Oh they are teenagers, then I would leave them to it. Just a “don’t take shit from anyone but don’t be a twat towards others either, maintain your standards” chat would be forthcoming from me. You do sound a bit over involved tbh. The girl can demand what she wants and your DD can say no. I doubt they make the kids play with each other at secondary either.

We’re all just waiting for the inevitable call from the school accusing all the girls of bullying. School will likely not manage this properly as this child is as sweet as pie in front of teachers. She’s vying to be head girl. For context she’s an only child and undiagnosed ASD.

So you’re fantasising about a scenario that hasn’t actually happened yet (yeah I saw your update saying others have blah blah but this has not happened). You’re wilfully ignorant about single children and ND children. Just because your ND child behaves a certain way, that’s not the playbook for all of them. Presumably your two ND children aren’t carbon copies of each other.

Frankly you sound quite unpleasant and your attitude is probably rubbing off. I feel sorry for the other child who is trying to navigate her teenage years and finding a way to fit in with people who don’t want her around.

You/your kids don’t have to like everyone but there’s a base level of respect and kindness we all should be showing.

The girl sounds awful. There will always be horrible kids about im afraid, you can't really do much about it apart from educate you own kids on how to protect themselves from others.

Totally agree with this. I see ‘undiagnosed’ being banded around a lot. Why not just say ‘suspected’ - and that’s even if she’s on a wait list to be assessed!

Also, the most social and outgoing people I know are only children

Just arrange things without her. If the mum asks why her child wasn't invited, tell her it was arranged between the girls. Now that they're older, they can independently arrange stuff between them. If they dont get on, then they don't get on! You cannot force people to be friends. If you don't want to look bad then suggest once a month meet up in town with her included, then the group can split off when they've had enough of her.

I mentioned she’s an only because naturally she’d have less opportunities to socialise.

Ah that old chestnut. FWIW my house resembled the local kids club when DD was growing up she had that many friends.

Only children have more opportunities to socialise, if anything, because their parents tend to be proactive about play dates from a very early age.

We’re all just waiting for the inevitable call from the school accusing all the girls of bullying

So it hasn’t actually happened?

Just teach your daughter how to maintain boundaries if she doesn’t get on with this girl. You sound really over-involved. They’re 13 not 3.

Both things can be true OP, poor social skills and children being bullied as a result of them, as you say they can also be the bully!

I can see what you would find the girl frustrating. However, I think you’re making a mountain out of a molehill here. The school hasn’t contact you to say that your DD and others are bullying her. Why are you getting so angry about something that hasn’t even happened? You sound way too involved in this given that they’re 13. You need to start giving your daughter the tools to start dealing with friends, stop doing it for her.

Yes exactly.

I see quite often unqualified people - parents, teaching assistants, nursery workers - throwing around the 'ASD' label.

Actually with a lot of these kids there is no diagnosis, they are not on a waiting list to be assessed, and there are other things entirely going on in their lives which are causing them to behave in certain ways.

It doesn't mean they are necessarily neurodivergent and unqualified people assigning labels does not explain or solve anything.

OP is saying this child is an 'entitled brat', 'bragging', 'jealous and possessive', trying to 'manipulate' her friends. All really concerning things but there could be a whole plethora of things going on there.

If she's not diagnosed you don't know and being 'manupulative' is not exactly a trademark of autism - most people with ASD don't have enough social understanding to be able to manipulate people.

'Undiagnosed ASD' is not a label or explanation of anything. It's undiagnosed.

Her mother may well be correcting the behaviour but it doesn’t mean it will fix it. You don’t have to tolerate either of them if you choose not to. Don’t respond to the mother when she messages and continue to allow your child to socialise with who she chooses. You can’t force friendship.

Explain to your daughter that she’s not obliged to be friends with anyone and if she chooses to take a step back from this girl, then she’s perfectly entitled to do so. Teaching kids about boundaries is so important but also make it clear that this should be done without being unkind or cruel.

Reiterate the above to the other mum, and that you’ll be leaving it to your DD to manage her friendships going forward so you’ll no longer be getting involved.

People really really annoy me on here with their fundamental misunderstanding of autism.

All this "you can be autistic without being a dick" or "my son is autistic and I don't tolerate rude behaviour" crap.

Autism is a COMMUNICATION difference. It impacts the way people understand, interpret, and interact with the world. It isn't something you turn on while being interested in your special subject and then turn off to go and be rude to a friend. If you are autistic everything you do is done autisticly.

My adult kid is autistic and they know and understand intellectually that there are expectations about greetings and politenesses in our culture. They still get it wrong in their mid 20s, because they are sufficiently autistic that they find the expectations themselves too stressful, and they have such a history of being negatively interpreted when getting it accidentally wrong, that they just withdraw from interaction with new people. And still this is interpreted as rude, ignorant, deliberate. And guess what? It's not them "being a dick". It's part of the autism. My other autistic kid is less significantly impacted in this aspect and he can manage greetings. This isn't because he is polite and my other kid is deliberately rude. It's because their autism affects them differently.

A 13 year old person who is autistic (assuming she is) may or may not understand that it is inappropriate to ask what someone is buying you for your birthday. That's because everyone who is autistic is different. They may or may not understand that asking for an expensive gift is wildly inappropriate. You cannot assume that they know and are deliberately being outrageously entitled. I loathe the way NT people make assumptions about intent all the bloody time.

And fwiw if your daughter and her friends are excluding this child, who thinks she is among friends, from parties and outings then yes, they are bullying her in a very typically female way, by exclusion. Your daughter and friends are in a difficult position if they no longer like this girl or find her annoying, but the poor thing hasn't yet worked out that her former friends don't like her any more and are excluding her from events.

How would you feel if it was your daughter who was accidentally finding out because someone let it slip that everyone else in what she thought was her friend group had been meeting for picnics and roller skating or whatever and not invited her?

Of course the only way forward is for this girl to realise the people she thought were her friends really aren't, and go off and find another group. But you can surely spare a modicum of compassion for how difficult that must feel.

The whole "Be kind" idea is often taken way too far.

No child should be forced to be friends with a child who makes them feel uncomfortable or threatened. It isn't bullying to not want to associate with someone who is unpleasant towards you.

@SmotheringMonday very well said. Autism and ADHD can make navigating society a minefield, especially for chldren. Bullying by deliberately excluding someone is not pleasant behaviour.

This.

@SmotheringMonday I really don’t think that autistic people should be included at all costs, if they are rude or mean to other people. And I say this as someone who has a child with additional needs and an EHCP.
That’s not inclusivity. I have autistic friends. You can call them out or tell them their behaviour is hurtful. It’s ok to find their words or behaviour hurtful even if you know there wasn’t intention. It’s ok to need a break from them at times. That’s true inclusivity, not giving them a free pass but holding your friends accountable and explaining what they did and the impact.

The other girls are also children, not trained therapists for ND children. It’s not bullying to choose your own friendship group. It’s up to the child’s mother to help her daughter to understand the situation, and it sounds like she is not doing this

I do think some kids make themselves 'easy targets' for bullying, much as we hate bullying. My ds has pointed this out to me. If you want an easy life at school you just have to blend in it would seem - rightly or wrongly.

That's not what I said.

I said clearly this child needs to realise the people she thinks are her friends are not her friends any more, and go off and find a new group, but that this is a painful process.

Of course it's fine for a friend to say "of course I can't buy you a Taylor Swift cardigan for your birthday. They are like £100, silly! I have a £10 limit for friend's birthdays, I am not made of money! Is there something in that price range you might like?"

That's very different from saying "can you believe Sarah asked me for a Taylor Swift cardigan for her birthday? They are like £100. She's such a spoilt bitch and so entitled!"

To be honest I don’t really understand what the issue is.

13 is quite old tbh, at that point I was interacting with my friends more than family ie I was more than capable of managing friendships without parental intervention.

At that age, if you don’t want to be friends with someone…just say that to them. It is really weird for parents of 13 year olds to still be arranging playdates or setting up outings to allow certain people to be invited.

Also I’m in my 20s so I’m speaking from recent experience.

If I was your daughter, being forced by my mum to spend time with this girl, I’d feel suffocated.

I think the next time her mum contacts you, be honest and say your daughter doesn’t want to continue the friendship due to these incidents. That’s not bullying. And if anything, serves as a written record of the truth should accusations occur in the future.

She's describing behaviour, is there a pleasant way to describe unpleasant and toxic behaviour? Some kids are vile while great in front of teachers. Think back to your childhood and you'll find examples.
We had a psychopath boy who tortured other children and animals described by one of the teachers as "such a lovely boy who'd never do anything bad". Because he knew to behave in front of teachers and many other examples.
You're either very naive or don't have good intentions yourself.