To drink alcohol when my daughter doesn't like me to.

[AnonymousMum37]

Hi, I wanted to ask some advice anonymously.

My 9 year old daughter hates anything she sees as bad for you e.g. alcohol, smoking, tattoos, piercings... . She is autistic and very black and white about what she sees as good and bad.

I have 3 small tattoos (from before she was born), pierced ears, and I enjoy a moderate amount of alcohol (a glass or two of wine with dinner 2/3 nights a week and go out to the pub with friends maybe once a month).

I have never smoked or vaped, but I have some friends who do.

Her reactions are getting unbearable.

She growls at any of my friends who smoke or vape and has decided they are bad people, even if they don't do this near her she knows they do and she therefore hates them. I don't like it either so I can understand but they are not bad people.

She begs me at the supermarket not to buy wine, loudly making a scene as though I'm a raging alcoholic, so I can no longer buy it with the weekly shop as it is mortifying.

She refuses to do her chores unless I promise not to drink anymore. I stupidly relented recently and said that I would not have a drink for a few weeks and then last night I had had a long day and had 2 small glasses of wine with dinner and at bedtime she was screaming and crying saying she can't trust me and I am a liar and I'm not ever allowed to drink again.

I know this sounds awful, and when she's saying it I start feeling like I must be an awful parent..

I do so much for her and she already controls so much of family life. I don't like her feeling she can control what I do when it doesn't even affect her.

She is adamant I should not get any more tattoos when I was thinking about one recently. I feel like I'm the rebellious child and she's the strict parent.

It's very hard to argue with her because of course she is right in a way, alcohol, smoking, tattoos, none of these things are good for us, but at the same time I would like her to be tolerant of people's rights to make their own choices and see that we are not good or bad people but unique and complex combinations. I have tried comparing it to her choosing to eat sweets sometimes which is not great for you but fine in moderation but she can't make that link.

Am I being unreasonable to say I am allowed to drink alcohol?

I'm autistic and I really dislike the tone of this comment. Of course OP isn't disregarding her daughter's voice. She came here seeking advice for a start and from what she's described it seems that she has lots of love, care and understanding for her daughter and her voice.

She is still a child. I can appreciate firsthand the black and white thinking. When I was a kid I used to get upset when I saw my parents smoke and I couldn't understand why they were choosing to take days off their lives, in effect choosing to leave me behind earlier.

A glass of red wine is not the same. OP isn't shooting up heroin or smoking crack. Autism isn't a free pass to dictate the lives of those around you, especially not at 9 years old.

Echoing previous posters that you're the one in charge - but that doesn't mean you shouldn't listen to her concerns (which you are).

At your daughters age,I swore (loudly,probably obnoxiously) that drinking and smoking were awful,I'd never do either blabla. For a good few years.

I was a wild child in my teens,and was in a terrible place in my early 20s. So I'd actually not overdo the reassurance either.

You're right. The voice of the child is very important.

And so is a parent being able to parent, and not have their life dictated to by their child.

It sounds to me like the OP is listening, but doesn't know how to parent through. The fact they're asking on here shows they're trying to find a reasonable way through this problem.

@AnonymousMum37 You know your child best. What are her motivators? What does she consider consequences?

Does her autism have a level of understanding that she's allowed to disagree with you, but that her behaviour is unacceptable? As that's the route I'd be taking. Acknowledge that she's allowed these thoughts. Praise her that she cares about your health. Allow her to make those choices for herself.

But there must be rewards/consequences for the behaviour. As with all parenting. E.g. if you have to take her to the shops, then she gets to choose a comic/toy at the end if she doesn't create in the wine aisle (at the start of this process, allow her to grumble at a normal talking voice for her reward, then slowly reduce over time etc)

Her ND will be with her all her life. She will have friends later in life who smoke/drink/have tattoos. You need to teach her how to be part of the society she lives in, and all these frustrations now are you working hard to enable your daughter to live her very best adult life in the future.

All the best

Love from a safeguarding lead in a SEN school that specialises in children with communication difficulties, primarily Autism.

I don't think the OP has dismissed or minimised anything, in fact she has tiptoed around her dd's feelings on.the matter (not buying wine in the weekly shop) to the point her dd thinks she is running the show.
The daughter is so emboldened by this she feels she is now in a position to dictate to her mother's friends how they should behave whilst they are in her company.
I think she is of an age now that she can start to understand that people are free to make their own choices regardless of whether she agrees with them or not.

My DDs used to stare in total fascination and horror when someone was smoking. I found out later that they literally expected them to drop dead on the spot.

I have an 11 year old who is lovely and well meaning but she can be a bit “puritanical”. For example, she was very judgy about girls in her class wearing make up recently.

I don’t disagree with her view that 11 is too young for make up but I did explain to her that it’s entirely up to them (and their parents) and that if she doesn’t want to wear make up, she doesn’t have to, but it’s not ok to be mean about others for making different choices that don’t even affect her.

You need to teach them how to function in social situations.

My autistic 10yr old DD is similar but thankfully can make the link between moderation/doesn't make you a bad person. I calmly asked her has she ever seen me drunk? She hasn't because I rarely drink and when I do it's a small glass of wine/alcopop and never enough to get me drunk. She now wants reassurance on the rare occasions I drink that im not going to get drunk and then its fine.

I'm also a smoker and I have no intention of quitting so I've no advice on this because it is a bad choice and I can't really defend it but thankfully she understands it doesn't make me a bad person as she knows who I am, could you maybe get your friends that smoke/vape to do something that shows her they are good people who make a bad choice? I appreciate this may not be possible with her black and white thinking.

Its difficult parenting a child like this but please stop handing control over to her, you are making life easier now but you are setting her up to fail as she becomes an adult and has the rapid realisation she can't control what other people do. You are not a bad parent for enjoying a couple of glasses on wine (unless you are regularly falling down drunk and in no position to be a responsible adults which i dont believe is the case from your OP) and honestly it's sounds like you need the odd glass!

A final point, stop making promises you realistically can't keep, that's not fair to anyone.

I have some experience of this with DS, who is ASD. He’s an adult now and my stance has always been that while I respect his opinions, I am an adult who can make my own choices in life. He doesn’t have to agree with anything I do, but he has to respect my right to do said thing. It’s worked out ok for us.

It isn’t a plain choice to either give into her fears or ignore them. You can talk to her and acknowledge her concerns but reiterate that you are an adult and can choose a glass of wine if you want to.

Consistency is key here. Telling her you wouldn’t drink and then doing so wasn’t the best move, as it has damaged the trust. But going forward, just keep sticking to the fact that you can make your own choices and she will accept it in time. It’s not a case of explaining once and she gets it or she doesn’t. It needs to be a consistent message over time.

As @JMSA says, the rigid thinking comes with the terrority. The controlling behaviour is driven by anxiety.
Is your daughter at mainstream school? Is there anyone there you can talk to ? Or the National Autistic Society? It's hard for her and you but she can't be allowed to control what the family does totally. My children are autistic but late teens now, you have to make some compromised but you have to have boundaries/rules as well.

Also, in what ways are tattoos harmful?
Good luck OP.

OOI, how did she form the view that tattoos and piercings are bad in the first place if you have both? Can she articulate what the actual problem with them is (she might not be able to if the opinion has come from seeing judgy pursed lips or comments etc without a full understanding of what is usually misogyny or class prejudice behind it).

I just wanted to add another perspective, smoking and drinking both have significant effects on the user but also others around them.

Smoking really really smells even when people go outside to smoke. It has always given me migraines and it as a child it felt selfish that people could also smoke indoors when I was young, and it felt selfish that my parents or grandparents knew about second and third hand smoke harm and still subject me to it. It felt like they were aware that it was damaging to me, but were willing to see me as collateral damage to their habits.

Drinking also really smells and as I mentioned it changes how people behave and I could not cope with that change. I still can't really.

When others would drink or smoke with my mum my perception didn't change because it was someone else. In fact it felt like I was very aware of the peer pressure that my mum would face and would join in. All the things I'd been taught like not to fall for peer pressure, smoking damages your health and takes years off your life, people do stupid stuff when they're not sober etc felt hypocritical.

It had also been drilled into me that children of parents who are smokers are also likely to be smokers themselves and it felt like it would become an eventuality that I'd also become a smoker which was terrifying to me at the time. It felt like a pre-written fate that the universe had decided this course for me and no matter how hard I would try and avoid it, it would come for me eventually. It was a pattern, and I was very good at seeing patterns, but didn't understand correlation does not equal causation.

People would go out to smoke then come in and sit on our furniture or use our cups or cutlery and they felt immensely dirty after the fact.

But the sensory experiences were by far the worst for me to manage.

In my assessment we discussed this, at my family history appointment. As a child I didn't quite have the words to explain how it affected me but I did as an adult and my mum said it was a hard pill to swallow hearing me say all of that. I did feel heard. But now I'm an adult and can choose to stay away it didn't have any bearing on the choices she chooses for herself.

Obviously you are responsible for the choices you make, and she needs to understand that, but it won't be easy. It might take a long time for her to accept that. You might need to ask questions targeted to see what it is she objects to and see if there are ways you can still make the choices you want without accidentally causing upset or distress to her.

Oh OP this sounds so hard, I really sympathise. I have a son with ASD.

Some children with autism are very much into numbers, statistics and graphs etc. Would going down this route to risk be worth trying, in relation to risk and balancing choices etc? (Sorry if it's alreafy been suggested). There's a chance that you could have an accident everytime you cross the road or drive a car but we still do these things because we reduce the risk by doing them sensibly. Also, we accept some risks in life in order to enjoy ourselves - we wouldn't have much fun if we never left the house. The black and white thinking is hard to navigate tho, I do get it.

So what's your solution? You didn't give one you just lectured OP on all her private thoughts. You want her to listen, it sounds like she listens all the time to her moaning about this.

This is ridiculous. If DD is making a fuss in a supermarket and showing ocd type behaviours then the important thing is that she gets therapy before things get out of hand

If a child discloses they are worried about a parents drinking, it starts with a conversation with the child about impact. How does the drinking affect you (the child)? Are parents proving meals, keeping the home clean, whos looking after siblings? Has the child had to look after a drunk parent? Is there is money for heating and shopping? Then explore the child's feelings around drinking - is it fear? Control? Does it relate to something that happened previously? do they know other people who get drunk/high? Then explore reasons for these feelings, like, for example, why does Mum drinking feel out of control?

These are just a few examples of the start point for what my DSL team would be asking, not a definitive list. It very much depends on the individual case.

Going back to thr OP, the Child's Voice is key here, regardless how unpleasant that feels to other parents and posters here.

If the child says they are scared when mum drinks, or expresses feelings of loss of control, or anything else, we will want to know why. Being clear here, this first necessarily mean social care will swoop in. This isn't about a child protection responce (although it could). It's about not dismissing the child's voice.

I'll give an example of a child who tells untruths about her mums drinking in order to contol, and why shes still listened to. I've supported a girl who cannot tolerate her Mum drinking. She will often make stuff up that she knows will reach social care threshold any time mum has a single drink. Social care do an assessment and usually conclude that while mum is a drinker, her drinking isn't impacting the care of the child.

Why does this girl do this? Because we know, social care knows, Mum knows - that Mum and Mums partner are recovering alcoholics. They don't abstain. They still drink, but have a safety plan. This means they shouldn't drink at the same time if child is at home and that Mum and step dad know to take a break from each other if they start to argue (because it gets violent).

They do generally stick to this safety plan. But child has such trauma from what home used to be like with them, that seeing Mum with a can of Stella triggers her massively. Going on holiday triggers her. Even though Mum usually sticks to the safety plan. So, while I often know this girls fears are frequently not real, I understand why she's scared and everyone around her validates that she feels scared and out of control and understands.

This is just one example, there are many others.

Bottom line is - the child is expressing fear and a need to control. Understanding why she feels like that is important.

"The DSL where I work.." will give due regard to the voice of the child @Merryoldgoat. Because that's what KCSiE and WTTKCS insists we do.

The OP says:

She growls at any of my friends who smoke or vape and has decided they are bad people, even if they don't do this near her she knows they do and she therefore hates them.

It doesn't sound like they smoke or vape around her, it is enough for the DD that she knows the friends do this at all and she has therefore judged them for it. Her behaviour to them is therefore just rude.

As to the advice to the OP only to buy or drink wine when the DD is not there, this might avoid a scene but is doing nothing to address the actual problem, which is the DD's rigid thinking and controlling behaviour.

Yeah because only 'bad' girls who drink and get tattoos will develop their own sexuality 🙄

Tell her she's out with her bags as soon as she turns 18. You shouldn't tolerate her behaviour and don't use her autism as an excuse for her to behave badly.

Sorry, but this isn’t what’s happening here at all. The child in question also thinks she can dictate whether her mother has a tattoo or pierced ears, FFS.

This isn’t the child of a heavy drinker who is upset because she regularly sees a parent drunk. It is a child who has developed an irrational obsession with certain things being ‘bad’ and thinks that she can tell people they are also ‘bad’ for doing them.

The child is autistic and therefore sees things very, very black and white and has very rigid and prescriptive notions, that are not reasonable. Pandering to this isn’t going to help her at all. As she gets older she is going to need to learn about moderation and personal choice, and now would be a good time to start.

Mum of Autistic DC here. Understand the control need as my DC had it too.
However - politely and kindly - you are the parents not your DC.
So I would explain this to her clearly. :
I am in charge and my job is to love and care for you. I don’t drink to excess. A glass of wine is something I enjoy, just like you enough (insert special interest)
Before friends come round you practise and pre coach: Jan and Pam are going to come round. We are going to open some wine, chat etc. Adults are allowed to choose when they have a drink. It is rude to growl at them. What are you going to do instead? Read a book, watch tv, read/watch about a particular special interest (if she has one). We are safe and ok.
It also helps to believe in your authority as her Mum. she is 9. You are and adult. You know what is good for her.
If you get a tattoo her approval of not has nothing to do with it.
Good luck!

I'd be trying education. Whilst you don't want to be convincing her that alcohol is good show her the government guidelines and how you are careful to stay within those. Its a new rule she can understand. You could even track it on a chart, one glass is one unit obviously so you're well under (and no reason to know what you drink when out).

With vaping friends can she understand that they used to smoke and so vaping is actually helping them?

No suggestions for the smokers unfortunately.

She's very young. This dies need to be dealt with, she may soon learn about ultra processed food then you'll have hell. Better to introduce her to rules around moderation now.

Good luck.

Also I wouldn’t take her to the supermarket when you buy alcohol. Buy it when she isn’t with you.
But firmly and kindly keep repeating the same message. I would guess that she is trying to feel in control for some reason. But 9 year olds don’t do well when they control as they are children not adults. It will just lead to more control.

I think one of the issues is what happens when the autistic child becomes an autistic teen/young adult/adult?

I think it’s nice that as a parent you do whatever stops your child’s anxiety. I don’t disagree with this at all in theory. But what if the child at 18 goes to uni away from home and becomes anxious about house mates drinking?

It doesn’t always do a child favours to just always remove anything that makes them uncomfortable rather than helping them deal with it.

It’s weird because tattoos and piercings aren’t actually bad for your health, but she hates those too! They’re not in the same category as smoking and drinking.

Unless the op is lying to us all and is actually a full blown alcoholic, while sad for you, this is literally unrelated and irrelevant.