Page 21 | Nigel Farage on abortions- slippery slope?

Ph2028 · 2025-05-28T00:13:04+00:00

Following the speech, Farage was also asked about his view on abortion limits. He replied that he was pro-choice but that it was "utterly ludicrous" for abortion to be allowed up to 24 weeks, when a hospital would "move heaven and earth" to help a baby born at 22 weeks survive. Aibu to think it may be a slippery slope to reducing the number of weeks until it is effectively banned... Anyway it's a bit of a non issue on Nigel's part given n*early 94% of reported abortions happen before two and a half months of pregnancy*.so very few abortions happen at 24 weeks. Now i remember why I requested a tubal ligation when I was pregnant with first baby as I didn't want anymore in any circumstances. It was predictably denied so dh got a vasectomy instead.

OutandAboutMum1821 · 28/05/2025 19:06

Anyway, I’m off out now so good evening to you all, it’s been great debating with you, the vote’s looking pretty 50-50 so far. Thanks to the medics who’ve commented- highly relevant and will read properly another time.

Digdongdoo · 28/05/2025 19:07

OutandAboutMum1821 · 28/05/2025 19:01

It’s about showing tact and diplomacy, you know, sensitivity to others?

I.e. I didn’t keep banging on about my pregnancies and waving scan photos in my friend’s face who was going through a 6 year IVF battle. I wouldn’t have banged on about abortions either, she was really struggling.

It is sometimes better to go about what you are doing a bit more quietly and being a bit mindful of who you are talking to and what they might have experienced.

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Women are not supporting characters in our own lives. We are all allowed to talk about things that matter to us.

Glowingup · 28/05/2025 19:08

OutandAboutMum1821 · 28/05/2025 19:01

It’s about showing tact and diplomacy, you know, sensitivity to others?

I.e. I didn’t keep banging on about my pregnancies and waving scan photos in my friend’s face who was going through a 6 year IVF battle. I wouldn’t have banged on about abortions either, she was really struggling.

It is sometimes better to go about what you are doing a bit more quietly and being a bit mindful of who you are talking to and what they might have experienced.

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Wow the irony here. You clearly wouldn’t personally have an abortion yet you think it’s fine to berate other women who do have one and say they are irresponsible and entitled etc. How about you exercise some tact and diplomacy yourself?
And like I said upthread, Lily Allen has experienced multiple losses and a stillbirth. Even if she hadn’t she would still be entitled to speak up about abortion rights which is what she was doing when she said that. But for you to call her entitled and insensitive to women who have lost pregnancies is staggering given that she falls into that category herself. Stop. Policing. Women.

thepariscrimefiles · 28/05/2025 19:10

@OutandAboutMum1821 Are the other people who volunteefrat the Samaritans as judgemental as you? I would have thought that being judgemental would disqualify you from working there.

Cherrytree86 · 28/05/2025 19:16

OutandAboutMum1821 · 28/05/2025 19:06

Anyway, I’m off out now so good evening to you all, it’s been great debating with you, the vote’s looking pretty 50-50 so far. Thanks to the medics who’ve commented- highly relevant and will read properly another time.

@OutandAboutMum1821

please tell me you’re not going off to volunteer at the Samaritans?

B1rthdayD1lemna · 28/05/2025 19:16

KidsDr · 28/05/2025 19:00

It's quite hard to summarise this in just one post but I will try. I'm not a consultant either just a registrar so for very tricky ethical dilemmas / differences of opinion between medical team and parents a consultant would always be involved and leading the discussions. Which means some gaps in my experience / reference points possibly. I don't have decades of experience either, only a couple of years in tertiary neonatal settings.

There are factors other than gestation which are really important, particularly at extremely premature gestations: size/weight, whether there has been time to give antenatal steroids, whether the mother/baby are sick (for example from womb infection), sex of the baby, multiple pregnancy, other complicating factors (the baby has had inadequate fluid for lung development, the baby has another congenital illness/syndrome etc). These factors cumulatively affect the chances of the baby. Location of birth is also very important but often, if the location is not optimised then there hasn't been time to discuss options so an assumption will be made to resuscitate if the baby has signs of life.

The condition of the baby itself at birth is perhaps the most important thing for extremely premature babies, which isn't always possible to predict. The discussion with parents tries to cover all of the options & might reach a conclusion eg we will resuscitate if baby has a good breathing effort and colour at birth, but if baby is floppy, grey and not crying we will let them pass away peacefully. Parents are very involved in these decisions, though sometimes they want us to make the choice for them / guide their choice quite a lot. There's a balance to be struck. I don't want to lead anyone into a decision, but the choice can be an enormous burden & I do want to ease that burden and it's my job to provide the context/perspective that many parents naturally won't have.

Fundamentally yes - parents of (otherwise completely healthy / optimal) 22/23 weekers would usually be presented with all of the options, including the option to do nothing at birth. And that would be their choice. Ultimately the choice to do nothing could stretch all the way up to term depending on the individual factors of the baby if those factors mean there isn't a good chance of survival or the baby will need very aggressive resuscitation.

As a rule it's not generally considered appropriate to do chest compressions and certainly not to give resuscitation drugs for extremely premature babies (22/23/24/25 & potentially up to 28 depending on adversity of factors) born without respiratory effort who then go into or remain in cardiac arrest despite appropriate airway/breathing measures. I would frame this as the baby being unable to survive the stress of birth. Parents aren't really given a choice about what medical interventions are considered futile.

Generally, your specific question doesn't come up because in my experience parents are always on board if doctors advise that intervention is the right thing to do. I'm trying to imagine - I think if a baby born at 24 weeks with good factors was vigorous and breathing spontaneously then we would support them, even if parents had expressed they didn't want this - I've never come across this situation though or heard of it. 22/23 babies are generally much less vigorous / breathe less and therefore keeping them alive is immediately more invasive from just minutes after birth, combined with worse outcomes it's a reasonable option to decline all of that. But I find that parents rarely do.

Generally, parents want to intervene, perhaps too much but they are the ones who have to live with consequences and the feelings, not me. I think parents find the "what if" (my baby could have survived) too difficult I think. It's easier to live with, we tried, it didn't work and then we let go.

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Thanks for explaining and sharing your experiences

WhereIsMyJumper · 28/05/2025 19:25

B1rthdayD1lemna · 28/05/2025 19:16

Thanks for explaining and sharing your experiences

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I’ve found @B1rthdayD1lemna ’s posts extremely interesting, insightful and non-judgemental

MattCauthon · 28/05/2025 21:24

OutandAboutMum1821 · 28/05/2025 18:06

And plenty don’t. People openly celebrate their lack of planning, care and responsibility. Awful.

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So we have had "coerced".
Then we got "boasting"
I think we had "inappropriate"
And now we have "celebrate"

And in every single case you have massively overstated the women's comments.

LlynTegid · 28/05/2025 21:27

I think it's one of the kind of 'dog whistle' comments that Nigel Farage comes out with. He knows full well that there is a large majority in favour of legal abortion in the House of Commons and has been for probably 60 years, and that no change would happen even if Reform had a majority of seats.

user1471516498 · 28/05/2025 21:50

I had an abortion at 24 weeks, because I developed a condition that meant that giving birth would leave me severely disabled in the best case scenario, and there was a significant chance that I would have died.
I already had children, so I had to factor the risk of leaving them without a mother into the equation.
There was no good option in my situation, but in certain parts of the US, I would not have had a choice at all. At the very least, the doctors would have to wait until I was at immediate risk of dying before they intervened, and from what we have seen recently, me being left severely disabled would not be reason enough.

Nobody other than my husband knows what happened. Luckily I was a teacher at the time, so the long school holidays meant I could hide it to a degree and I just didn't mention it at all when I got back, and people either forgot or didn't notice in the first place., Family members were more tricky, but they just knew that I lost the baby. I felt guilty that people thought that I had had a miscarriage, but I was careful not to appropriate sympathy and made it very clear that I didn't want to talk about it with anybody.
It was a horrible situation to be in, but the doctors presented it as a necessity,rather than as a moral choice. At least this way my daughters still have a mother.
These are the sort of situations where women have abortions at 24 weeks. I am sure some people will judge me, but being brutally honest, after losing a much wanted baby, I am past caring what strangers think. I am still unable to grieve, as I feel like I have no right to grieve. It is the hardest thing I have ever done, but I am grateful that I was in the UK when it happened.

Thegreyhound · 28/05/2025 21:56

OutandAboutMum1821 · 28/05/2025 18:06

And plenty don’t. People openly celebrate their lack of planning, care and responsibility. Awful.

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People can have abortions for two reasons- because they have to or because they want to. None of anyone else’s business.

Moral judgement doesn’t come into it- think what you like, but whether you approve or disapprove people are always going to have sex and people are always going to need abortions .

Supima · 28/05/2025 22:31

SprinkleTheCat · 28/05/2025 18:42

I actually agree and think 24 weeks for non medical reasons is far too late.. This is a fully formed baby not a cluster of cells.
However in terms of abnormalities, incompatible with life etc women should be able to (and can) have an abortion up to term.
The 24 week limit is for any and all abortions not just medical ones.. Also I would be worried about people aborting because they don't like the gender.
However if so few women are having abortions at 24 weeks anyway according to the thread why is it a problem to lower it?

All abortions in England are for medical reasons - either physical or mental. We - unlike France - do not have abortion on request at any stage. We always have to get permission from a two doctors who must agree on the same grounds. Fortunately most doctors are compassionate and don’t want to force women to risk their heath and have children they don’t want.

Codlingmoths · 28/05/2025 22:44

Supima · 28/05/2025 22:31

All abortions in England are for medical reasons - either physical or mental. We - unlike France - do not have abortion on request at any stage. We always have to get permission from a two doctors who must agree on the same grounds. Fortunately most doctors are compassionate and don’t want to force women to risk their heath and have children they don’t want.

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Rubbish though. Whatever they’ve ticked on paper, we all know women who had abortions because they didn’t want the baby. Their mental health was fine in every way and you’re doing women no favours to say wanting an abortion is only done if it’s making you mentally unwell. You’re doing society a huge wrong to support this language of ‘i don’t like that outcome therefore I have mental health issues’ , although you are in a large cohort there.

MattCauthon · 28/05/2025 23:06

Codlingmoths · 28/05/2025 22:44

Rubbish though. Whatever they’ve ticked on paper, we all know women who had abortions because they didn’t want the baby. Their mental health was fine in every way and you’re doing women no favours to say wanting an abortion is only done if it’s making you mentally unwell. You’re doing society a huge wrong to support this language of ‘i don’t like that outcome therefore I have mental health issues’ , although you are in a large cohort there.

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Well, if I dont want a

Baby, and I am forced to have a baby, I am fairly certain that would be extremely bad for my mental health.

KidsDr · 28/05/2025 23:12

user1471516498 · 28/05/2025 21:50

I had an abortion at 24 weeks, because I developed a condition that meant that giving birth would leave me severely disabled in the best case scenario, and there was a significant chance that I would have died.
I already had children, so I had to factor the risk of leaving them without a mother into the equation.
There was no good option in my situation, but in certain parts of the US, I would not have had a choice at all. At the very least, the doctors would have to wait until I was at immediate risk of dying before they intervened, and from what we have seen recently, me being left severely disabled would not be reason enough.

Nobody other than my husband knows what happened. Luckily I was a teacher at the time, so the long school holidays meant I could hide it to a degree and I just didn't mention it at all when I got back, and people either forgot or didn't notice in the first place., Family members were more tricky, but they just knew that I lost the baby. I felt guilty that people thought that I had had a miscarriage, but I was careful not to appropriate sympathy and made it very clear that I didn't want to talk about it with anybody.
It was a horrible situation to be in, but the doctors presented it as a necessity,rather than as a moral choice. At least this way my daughters still have a mother.
These are the sort of situations where women have abortions at 24 weeks. I am sure some people will judge me, but being brutally honest, after losing a much wanted baby, I am past caring what strangers think. I am still unable to grieve, as I feel like I have no right to grieve. It is the hardest thing I have ever done, but I am grateful that I was in the UK when it happened.

Of course you deserve sympathy & have every right to grieve. You took on the suffering of losing a baby, to spare your daughters' suffering. The baby you lost, knew nothing but the simple comfort of your womb. That's not a bad life, though it is a short one. I'm sorry for your hardship.

Supima · 28/05/2025 23:25

MattCauthon · 28/05/2025 23:06

Well, if I dont want a

Baby, and I am forced to have a baby, I am fairly certain that would be extremely bad for my mental health.

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Yes, forcing unwilling women to endure pregnancy and the pain and risks of birth and then raise a child they don’t want isn’t good for anyone’s mental wellbeing. I find is so weird that women fantasise about enforcing that on other women. Handmaid’s Tale or what?

AlpacaMittens · 28/05/2025 23:45

Mnni · 28/05/2025 02:13

I do think any anti abortion rhetoric from right wing factions is to be treated with caution.

Personally I don't believe there should be a limit at all. As early as possible, as late as necessary.

A million percent this 💯💯💯💯

StaringAtTheWater · 29/05/2025 00:44

But this is one of those situations where the theoretical law no longer matches the reality on the ground. I found having an early abortion was very easy - no one asked me to justify myself on mental health grounds, or acted like it was illegal.

A second look at the law might actually be a good opportunity to legally enshrine women's right to have an abortion for any reason up to X weeks. And it's reasonable to have a debate about what X should be in light of medical advances etc. The fact that that absolute toad of a man mentioned it is just unfortunate (but even a broken clock...)

Shamsamvanybanhatyi · 29/05/2025 03:45

BDG007 · 28/05/2025 08:30

Killing an unborn baby is also barbaric, unless there are sufficient medical reasons

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Are you a woman? Do you have a womb? Can you relate at all to what some women go through when they have been raped? A pregnancy has happened due to incest or rape? Even men rape their wives and it’s legal in some countries

CurlewKate · 29/05/2025 06:26

user1471516498 · 28/05/2025 21:50

I had an abortion at 24 weeks, because I developed a condition that meant that giving birth would leave me severely disabled in the best case scenario, and there was a significant chance that I would have died.
I already had children, so I had to factor the risk of leaving them without a mother into the equation.
There was no good option in my situation, but in certain parts of the US, I would not have had a choice at all. At the very least, the doctors would have to wait until I was at immediate risk of dying before they intervened, and from what we have seen recently, me being left severely disabled would not be reason enough.

Nobody other than my husband knows what happened. Luckily I was a teacher at the time, so the long school holidays meant I could hide it to a degree and I just didn't mention it at all when I got back, and people either forgot or didn't notice in the first place., Family members were more tricky, but they just knew that I lost the baby. I felt guilty that people thought that I had had a miscarriage, but I was careful not to appropriate sympathy and made it very clear that I didn't want to talk about it with anybody.
It was a horrible situation to be in, but the doctors presented it as a necessity,rather than as a moral choice. At least this way my daughters still have a mother.
These are the sort of situations where women have abortions at 24 weeks. I am sure some people will judge me, but being brutally honest, after losing a much wanted baby, I am past caring what strangers think. I am still unable to grieve, as I feel like I have no right to grieve. It is the hardest thing I have ever done, but I am grateful that I was in the UK when it happened.

Of course you have a right to grieve. You made a right but incredibly painful and difficult decision. You were so brave to do that. Anyone who doesn’t think that is not worth a moment’s headspace.

Neurodiversitydoctor · 29/05/2025 06:33

Codlingmoths · 28/05/2025 22:44

Rubbish though. Whatever they’ve ticked on paper, we all know women who had abortions because they didn’t want the baby. Their mental health was fine in every way and you’re doing women no favours to say wanting an abortion is only done if it’s making you mentally unwell. You’re doing society a huge wrong to support this language of ‘i don’t like that outcome therefore I have mental health issues’ , although you are in a large cohort there.

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Wow, let me reassure you women having terminatiins at 20+ weeks are not doing it for shits and giggles. Very few of these late term abortions are done and without exception they are in utterly tragic circumstances or varying kinds . Now medical terminations before 10 weeks, some women may be doing that repeatedly as a " life style" choice. Having an abortion so late means either there is so much other chaos in your life you didn't notice you were pregnant or it is medicall inadvisable to continue the pregnancy. As others have said v. few are performed.

Coatsoff42 · 29/05/2025 08:25

I hate this thread, making women relive their trauma so some hard headed person can try and see another persons perspective and sympathise beyond an intellectual framework.
Why can no one trust women? As if any of the decisions are easy to make or easy to forget.
Everyone who has posted their distressing experiences, you have all my compassion and I am sorry you had to type it out and relive it. It breaks my heart you need to say it to be understood.

FOJN · 29/05/2025 08:52

That makes no sense because termination up until term is legal under ground E provision.

Dangermoo · 29/05/2025 09:26

LittleBitofBread · 28/05/2025 18:15

Absolutely this. It is a slippery slope precisely because it's Nigel Farage, and we will know what his long-term agenda is and who his contacts and friends are.

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Oh dear.

CurlewKate · 29/05/2025 10:16

Coatsoff42 · 29/05/2025 08:25

I hate this thread, making women relive their trauma so some hard headed person can try and see another persons perspective and sympathise beyond an intellectual framework.
Why can no one trust women? As if any of the decisions are easy to make or easy to forget.
Everyone who has posted their distressing experiences, you have all my compassion and I am sorry you had to type it out and relive it. It breaks my heart you need to say it to be understood.

Yes, I agree. And it’s even more soul destroying because the people who need to learn from these brave women’s lived experience are not going to learn, and are going to continue to peddle their constructed narrative.