Gender ideology is toxic and creates divisions

[reprobatiusmumius]

I know I’m wading into a toxic debate here. But AIBU to find the gender ideology debate just so poisonous?

I have non binary identifying autistic teenager. I love and accept her but I refuse to get drawn into pronouns and calling her by a name she’s made up herself.

Why? It’s disrespectful to me, frankly. I conceived, birthed, nurtured and named her. I do not wish to capitulate to an ideology I disagree with, and so? My stance is, you do you with your friends. I am going to do me with you. That means I call her by her birth name and I’m not going to force grandma to say they / them which is grammatically incorrect. This is my stance.

It feels like a reasonable truce, having navigated years of chest flatteners, drawings with breast scars and other horrors, when all I want for her is for her to be happy in herself. In her current body. Surely, that’s not an unreasonable stance? And yet, I have been called out for bigotry, transphobia and told that if she walks out on me and never speaks to me again, that’s all I deserve. Not by her, I may add, although she tends to refuse my clothing suggestions- it’s fine- I give her money and she can wear what she wants (except clothes, like binders, that can physically harm her)

I’m sorry, but how have we got to a stage where parental norms, wishes and expectations are so decried, twisted and frowned upon that this debate has become “if you don’t agree then your child should disown you”? Seriously, I’ve got to the point where I’m so angry by the gremlins who have hog hold of her and convinced her something untrue that I feel like I want to go full Trump and refuse to engage in this debate at all, just ban it outright.

This is a debate where there is no allowance for nuance, questioning, watching and waiting and just accepting a rebellion (because that’s what I see this as!). I thank god they have banned surgical interventions on under 18s because the online trolls who push this agenda want to turn kids against loving and cautious parents who just WANT THEIR KIDS TO BE HAPPY as they are!

Sorry, I’m so angry- have just been outright banned by an Autistic with ADHD sub on Reddit for stating the same, and told my daughter should disown me. How did this become so toxic and how is any of this good for families?

The online pushers want more angry converts to their nasty little cult and it’s made me so angry. How dare they poison my sweet little girl and make out that I, her mother, am the problem, because I have an opinion that differs from hers. It’s hideous and I’ve had enough of the insidious compulsion to agree entirely or say nothing.

My ASD daughter is trans identifying.

It sounds as though you're doing a great job, maintaining a positive relationship with your child. Ignore everything else, what matters most is the relationship between you.

However my child identifies in 10, 20 years' time, I want to be there with them.

It’s a cult. I think that’s a really helpful way to look at it in terms of getting advice on how to deal with a child in a cult etc. I am friends with several autistic people who agree that autistic people are especially vulnerable to cults and that they are also very good at recruiting each other. I’m very sorry you and your daughter are going through this.

I find it worrying in this subject area that you can’t expresss a different opinion without being jumped on and you can’t gently question something without being accused of being against people and bigoted.
However I will disagree with you about being willing to use a different name; yes you birthed her and nurtured her but you don’t own her and if she wants to be called by a different name I wouldn’t like it but I’d do it.

All names are made up though? I'm not sure why your choice of name for your child is more important than your child's choice of name for themself.

I think the toxicity comes from adults trying to dictate how teens define their identities. Teens do stuff I don't get, and I can still accept they have the right to define their own identities. I don't really think parents get to define who their teens are.

I have a non-binary teen. I'm happy to use the pronouns they prefer. Maybe they'll stick with it, maybe they won't, but I think there's no point in making in a battleground. They are still the same person, I still love them the same. They get to make choices about their own identity. It's more important to me that they feel unconditionally accepted, however they chose to express themself. That's the important thing I think.

I think you may want to look at your own toxic ideologies when you are saying things like "I want to go full Trump".

You seem much more concerned about yourself than your unhappy child.

I find this hard to read because you’re saying all you want is your child to be happy, but only if what you want for them is what makes them happy.

I fully agree that there should be a period of trial and error and exploration but what’s stopping you being supportive of all sides of that exploration rather than just the sides that suit your preferences?

If using certain pronouns and calling your child by a name that makes them feel comfortable is what makes them happy, then why can’t you do it whilst still making sure they’re exploring whether this is right, obtaining help from a professional in getting to the bottom of the conflicting feelings around transitioning and body dysmorphia?

I do fear that if you don’t show support then you will alienate your child.

I also don’t think it’s helpful to use terminology like “it’s disrespectful to me”. I’m sure your child is finding this difficult, confusing and upsetting and you assuming it’s done out of disrespect or an attempt to hurt you is probably not true.

Unfortunately, you don’t own your children because you birth them and, ultimately, you’ll have to decide what sort of a relationship you want with them, what that looks like for both of you and whether that’s possible but to suggest you get to dictate your child’s choices simply because you gave birth to them is to devalue your child as an independent human being.

Well, like I said, I let her do what she wants with her friends, but the name I gave her is what she is called, so I feel like it’s ok for me to use it. The more we just roll over and drink the kool aid, the more power we give it, and like I say, I don’t agree with the ideology, but I accept who she wants to be.

Agree with you 100%. It’s a cult that seeks to break the relationship between children and their parents.

Let’s all stop and think exactly who benefits from that breakage, shall we?

Your NB teen doesn’t get to tell a single other persons, and certainly not other children, that they have to use the wrong pronouns.

Because pronouns don’t belong to them to chop and change the meaning of as they choose. They have clear definitions we all know.

That would be compelled speech.

They don’t get to foist their lack of reality onto anyone else.

So I do hope that you have made that very clear to them while you go along with their denial of reality.

I completely agree with you. I'm sick to death of the way these tra's push the whole "your child will commit suicide if you don't use their pronouns". Oh do fuck off! I think it's a horrible cult that is harming so many teenagers and all the be kind idiots who are helping it should be ashamed of themselves. Sorry for the rant it just boils my blood that a ridiculous ideology is so bloody bowed down to

It’s not an ideology it’s their identity.

If they wanted to change their name by deedpoll then they could so the name you gave them is not sacrosanct.

If you genuinely believe they’ve been indoctrinated into an ideology and that by accepting their identity you’re “drinking the kool-aid” have you considered that those in power are hoping to isolate people from their families and the best way to beat them is to show unwavering and unconditional support for your child no matter what?

Anyone responding to your post with the hope of physical or mental harm, or a complete loss of a relationship with your daughter is wrong to say such things, but their sentiment comes from an inescapable truth.

And that truth is that you cannot make this statement --" . . . all I want for her is for her to be happy in herself" but then qualify it with "In her current body" because, love, that is the problem. She is not happy with herself in her current body.

Yes, teens are young, experimenting, trying to figure out things, some are easily manipulated or influenced, and often they change their minds. You could say that about a lot of adults, too.

But to go "full Trump" to deny her the right to figure things out, by trying things out, and respecting that will result in her feeling judged by you, and disrespected. And what will result from that? She will cease to tell you things. She will cease to rely on you when she is facing difficulties. She will handle problems alone or with those she trusts.

So, the harsh people, unempathetic to your side, still have a point because if you go "full Trump," and recognize that this descriptor means your adopting more than homophobia & transphobia . . . you are also taking on the mantle of racism, sexism, greed, apathy, anti-environment, anti-law, promotion of sexual assault as being acceptable, along with criminality as a pro . . . in the end, you will lose a relationship with your daughter. Any connection you have to her will be one in which she feels obligated. Don't you want your daughter to feel loved, accepted, and respected by you? Don't you want your daughter to feel like she trusts you?

If she does not feel these things, she will not give them in return, or at least not to the level that you hope and want.

Under 16s can’t change their name legally without parental consent.

She is showing unwavering and unconditional support to her child. She doesn’t have to believe her or go along with her denial of reality, though, and some would posit that doing so shows a lack of support.

There is plenty of evidence (Cass et al) that social affirmation (names and pronouns etc) are NOT neutral acts and vastly decrease the chance of desistance. And I really question the parenting of anyone insisting unwavering acceptance of all their child’s choices is the way forward. This isn’t a neutral identity, and this narrative of keeping your child alive by agreeing to lesser harms is absolutely hateful. These kids have absolutely been coached into professing suicidal ideation online and in schools etc by older, more sinister characters in order to get what they want. Why would these older characters want that? A shield, or a
generation of prepubertal appearing adults - or both?

I’m not surprised you’re angry OP. Autistic and vulnerable young people have been deliberately targeted by the cult as easy pickings and it’s shocking how many parents can’t see the dissonance.

Good point. I have made it clear that her world view does not trump anyone else’s, but that’s sort of the point of the post- the ideology will brook no debate- I’ve just been deplatforned on Reddit for making a similar point, and called a bigot.

My feeling is that if her friends want to go along wit it, so be it. I have drawn a firm line with her teachers too. I think one of them was calling her new name and I had strong words about it

Your daughter is trying to compel your speech and as such this is an attempted compelled speech. The free speech union sounds like a great idea and also complain to Reddit, I wish you luck.

The series of byker grove where Duncan joins a cult with the different colours on their jumpers really could come in useful here.

I’m not really dictating her choices by asking her to consider not mutilating herself, keeping the name I chose for her (with me at least) and maybe getting mental health support rather than a wholesale identity shift that she may live to regret. I don’t think that’s unreasonable. What I am calling out here is the toxicity of this debate- that, by questioning it, I am deemed persona non grata, dangerous, wrong and to be dispensed with. What if the shoe was on the other foot and parents were being advised to break off contact with trans identifying kids? See… it’s toxic.

I have raised this with free speech union. Reddit, on the other hand, are uncontactable.

Would I be being supportive if, by contrast, my daughter was unhappy with small breasts, and I recommended and funded breast implants, or would I be wiser to tell her that it might be better for her to learn to love her body and see how she feels in a few years?

I'm so sorry @reprobatiusmumius that sounds so tough for you. There are lots of mothers and fathers struggling with this and it's awful. I have an autistic son I'm worried for his future. He's only 6 but I've no idea how I will navigate his vulnerability as he gets older, these groups online can be so toxic.

There's a support group called Bayswater if I remember correctly that I've seen many posters on the feminism sex and gender boards talking about. Also I'm sure there's a good few parents also going through this that post regularly on that board. Rogdmum is one, might have spelt the user name wrong.

Anyway, you're not wrong, it's an insidious, misogynistic movement that thrives on threatening those who try to question it, confuses vulnerable children and glorifies medical modifications that harm children. It's a scandal and I do hope one day the dam will fully burst. The supreme court has helped but the push back and violent reactions of the activists and their cheerleaders has been shocking.

I’m more concerned about being deplatformed for having an alternative view. That’s what I want to ban- the assault on free speech.

What's more important - 'winning' the debate or preserving connection with your child? If they're constantly feeling invalidated the rift will be hard to repair.

And you wish to achieve that by deplatforming the others who have an alternative view? Like your child who you refuse to hear? 🫠

Sounds like you actually just want an argument OP

I too disagree with the gender debate, but the "i am your mother, i birthed you so you will respect and obey me" stance isn't something i can get on board with.

My own mother did it with me and it did nothing but push me away.

Respect is earned, not inherited.