Gender ideology is toxic and creates divisions

[reprobatiusmumius]

I know I’m wading into a toxic debate here. But AIBU to find the gender ideology debate just so poisonous?

I have non binary identifying autistic teenager. I love and accept her but I refuse to get drawn into pronouns and calling her by a name she’s made up herself.

Why? It’s disrespectful to me, frankly. I conceived, birthed, nurtured and named her. I do not wish to capitulate to an ideology I disagree with, and so? My stance is, you do you with your friends. I am going to do me with you. That means I call her by her birth name and I’m not going to force grandma to say they / them which is grammatically incorrect. This is my stance.

It feels like a reasonable truce, having navigated years of chest flatteners, drawings with breast scars and other horrors, when all I want for her is for her to be happy in herself. In her current body. Surely, that’s not an unreasonable stance? And yet, I have been called out for bigotry, transphobia and told that if she walks out on me and never speaks to me again, that’s all I deserve. Not by her, I may add, although she tends to refuse my clothing suggestions- it’s fine- I give her money and she can wear what she wants (except clothes, like binders, that can physically harm her)

I’m sorry, but how have we got to a stage where parental norms, wishes and expectations are so decried, twisted and frowned upon that this debate has become “if you don’t agree then your child should disown you”? Seriously, I’ve got to the point where I’m so angry by the gremlins who have hog hold of her and convinced her something untrue that I feel like I want to go full Trump and refuse to engage in this debate at all, just ban it outright.

This is a debate where there is no allowance for nuance, questioning, watching and waiting and just accepting a rebellion (because that’s what I see this as!). I thank god they have banned surgical interventions on under 18s because the online trolls who push this agenda want to turn kids against loving and cautious parents who just WANT THEIR KIDS TO BE HAPPY as they are!

Sorry, I’m so angry- have just been outright banned by an Autistic with ADHD sub on Reddit for stating the same, and told my daughter should disown me. How did this become so toxic and how is any of this good for families?

The online pushers want more angry converts to their nasty little cult and it’s made me so angry. How dare they poison my sweet little girl and make out that I, her mother, am the problem, because I have an opinion that differs from hers. It’s hideous and I’ve had enough of the insidious compulsion to agree entirely or say nothing.

It's really scary, isn't it, that this conversation has become so charged.

Not sure why you feel so personally offended by my point of view that you feel the need to resort to insults.

I also never advocated just blindly accepting anything one’s child tells them they are. I advocate a supportive approach to exploring together the root of the feelings, the reason for them, the legitimacy of them and the appropriate (both age appropriate and proportionate) response.

I think that invalidating their beliefs and their current perception of their identity just pushes them away, means they won’t listen even when you’re telling them valuable and helpful things and changes the narrative to arguing over pronouns and names rather than a collaborative approach to reaching the best outcome for the mental health, welfare and happiness of the child at the centre of all this!

Supporting someone does not necessarily mean agreeing with them

Of course it’s coerced. Female victims of rape have been told to refer to their male attackers using “their preferred pronouns” in court. That’s perjury, and yet that’s happened as a court order. Forcing a rape victim to deny the evidence of their own eyes.

Thats what you’re supporting. Which is of course up to you, you can support whatever evil you choose.

I am so sorry to hear that. My heart goes out to you.

The unfiltered, hive-minded rage on both "sides" of this mess has gotten totally out of hand. Families should not be torn apart.

I hope your child finds a way back to you.

Yes, you can think you're Elvis (or the Akond of Swat, or Queen of Sheba). You can believe you're cool, or that what you say makes sense.

What you can't do is be Elvis, or the Akond or Queen. Or anything else other than who and what you are. Believe what you like - it won't make it true.

If wishes were horses ... But they're not.

Thank you

We're talking about a person and their child. The one they gave birth to, and love.

Alternatively, as a PP considered, we could be talking about someone walking around, wanting to be addressed as Elvis.

This is exactly what I mean. It is impossible to have any sort of conversation without people going into extremes.

TRA's are exactly the same.

You and I are talking about language. Is that conversation not going the way you want it to? Because you claim it’s not coerced when there’s evidence - in this instance from a court of law - that it absolutely is?

What is the Supreme Court ruling about if not the distortion of language that you support?

What extreme am I going to? That poster and I are talking about language. She claims it’s not coerced when it absolutely is. I mean, I think it’s extreme to tell a female victim of rape she has to refer to her male rapist as she because that what he demands.

I kimd of agree

I think gender ideology is regressive. Why do girls' Tshirts have butterflies abd boys' Tshirts have dinosaurs? And, if I buy theatre tickets, why does the ticket company need to know if I'm male or female?

But, also think (1) we are male or female and (2) "they" is plural not singular

So, I could get on board with Mx but not "they". And then I feel bit hypocritical

@Ddakji

You've told me my belief system is evil. That I've talked about coercion (I didn't). I didn't mention rapists or courts or the ruling.

Too extreme for me.

🙄🙄🙄

Of course it is! It's horrifying, and I can guarantee you the majority of trans people feel the same.

But this thread is about OP her child and Reddit. Not rapists.

Conversations go on different tangents on threads. Language will always come up on gender ones and indeed the OP has talked about language several times.

The point being I did not fail to follow a rule. They told me my stance, which I articulated above, was bullying or hate speech. It is not.

I’m not discussing this further with you as you seem to think this is somehow ok, of I have transgressed. I’m not arguing the toss with you. Mods are not meant to be arbiters of morals or speech police.

Of course you’ve talked about coerced speech. You claimed it wasn’t coerced speech. That’s you talking about it. And now you’re lying about talking about it.

But as usual it’s just lies, lies and more lies when the ideology you espouse is a house of cards built on sand.

It’s like the cultural revolution in China.

I’m so sorry, and this is EXACTLY the sort of toxic, heartbreaking, soul destroying result of this whole ideology that terrifies me as I have seen precisely how poisoned she became (starting during Covid), how resistant to reason, vulnerable to others’ agendas (including predatory medicine and pharma offering to “fix” her).

I firmly believe there is no fixing. She is perfect as she is. Just kind acceptance, watchful waiting and least intervention, just carrying on as we were whilst acknowledging (if not capitulating to) her preferences … if this is not supporting her, and the social belief that she should be well within her rights to discard us for not blindly agreeing with this new and evangelical ideology, then the world has gone delululu, and I want no part it.

OP, I sincerely hope your child sees reason in time. Just carry on giving them opportunities to connect- whilst protecting you own mental health in the meantime.

I'm just not that angry. Sorry to disappoint.

We know from research that calling a child a new name and different pronouns is not a neutral act. It’s worth looking at the Cass review if you haven’t already. Also some of the clinicians who were working at the Tavistock have spoken out about this.

Um, I’m replying to Wowwee…I don’t understand your response of your unpleasantness tbh.

"There's a guy works down the chip shop swears he's Elvis."

I'm old enough to remember this. I was 16 when Kirsty MacColl sang this on Top of the Pops

<suddenly realises how off-topic this is and goes back to my cave>

"There are children called things like Olive and Miles."

Those are clearly the names given by the parents.

"Grin is pretty inoffensive IMO."

That really isn't the point. In that particular case I believe the name given at birth was "Molly Jessica"

If you had named your daughter "Molly Jessica" how would you feel if she insisted that you refer to her as a boy named "Grin"?

Although, in that particular case, the parents have gone full on affirming and do indeed refer to their daughter as their son.

You may have missed the fact that the (self declared, specific incorrect pronouns demanded) ‘identity’ IS the ideology.

Teenagers have always experimented and tried on different personas as they grow up - just look at goths or punks or mods. They enjoy being part of an identifiable group and winding the older generation up.

The difference with gender ideology being that ‘identity’ is now being wielded as power over others - blackmailing parents into indulging their demands with threats of suicide, castigating elderly grandparents who don’t understand the demand for ungrammatical or sex inappropriate pronouns, demanding that schoolmates remember a daily changing rotation of preferred pronouns (yes, at the peak of this madness, some schools indulged the special kids with coloured wristbands to indicate the preferred identity of the day - some police forces still do this with their officers who have different id cards for different ‘identities’).

I mentioned earlier about the girl on TikTok furious that her mum got a double mastectomy before her elective surgery. Her mum had breast cancer. The narcissism that this movement enables and cheers kn if off the scale.

These kids need adults to be adults and not indulge their ‘pronoun’ demands or agree that normal rules of humanity don’t apply to them.

Parents can provide unwavering support by setting boundaries and telling them the truth. I get that some parents are battling those bad actors indoctrinating their kids and trying to drive a wedge and they have to tread carefully but truth has to be at the heart of their relationship.