Gender ideology is toxic and creates divisions

[reprobatiusmumius]

I know I’m wading into a toxic debate here. But AIBU to find the gender ideology debate just so poisonous?

I have non binary identifying autistic teenager. I love and accept her but I refuse to get drawn into pronouns and calling her by a name she’s made up herself.

Why? It’s disrespectful to me, frankly. I conceived, birthed, nurtured and named her. I do not wish to capitulate to an ideology I disagree with, and so? My stance is, you do you with your friends. I am going to do me with you. That means I call her by her birth name and I’m not going to force grandma to say they / them which is grammatically incorrect. This is my stance.

It feels like a reasonable truce, having navigated years of chest flatteners, drawings with breast scars and other horrors, when all I want for her is for her to be happy in herself. In her current body. Surely, that’s not an unreasonable stance? And yet, I have been called out for bigotry, transphobia and told that if she walks out on me and never speaks to me again, that’s all I deserve. Not by her, I may add, although she tends to refuse my clothing suggestions- it’s fine- I give her money and she can wear what she wants (except clothes, like binders, that can physically harm her)

I’m sorry, but how have we got to a stage where parental norms, wishes and expectations are so decried, twisted and frowned upon that this debate has become “if you don’t agree then your child should disown you”? Seriously, I’ve got to the point where I’m so angry by the gremlins who have hog hold of her and convinced her something untrue that I feel like I want to go full Trump and refuse to engage in this debate at all, just ban it outright.

This is a debate where there is no allowance for nuance, questioning, watching and waiting and just accepting a rebellion (because that’s what I see this as!). I thank god they have banned surgical interventions on under 18s because the online trolls who push this agenda want to turn kids against loving and cautious parents who just WANT THEIR KIDS TO BE HAPPY as they are!

Sorry, I’m so angry- have just been outright banned by an Autistic with ADHD sub on Reddit for stating the same, and told my daughter should disown me. How did this become so toxic and how is any of this good for families?

The online pushers want more angry converts to their nasty little cult and it’s made me so angry. How dare they poison my sweet little girl and make out that I, her mother, am the problem, because I have an opinion that differs from hers. It’s hideous and I’ve had enough of the insidious compulsion to agree entirely or say nothing.

Your claim that homophobic slur words have been ‘successfully reclaimed’ is highly contestable.
There are many gay men and lesbians out there who find use of those words distressing and offensive. The fact that a certain group of activists have started using those words and in some cases have appropriated them for their own ends does not make this successful.

And these are not even in the same category as nonsense words such as ‘cis’ made up purely to subjugate women.

You’re not serious?? Children are not allowed ‘bodily autonomy’ - they are children. It’s the law.

We don’t allow children to make permanent changes to their body like tattoos, we don’t allow them to drink or have sex for a very good reason!

We also shouldn’t allow children to commit self harm by wearing binders or taking puberty blockers and cross sex hormones. We have a great responsibility as adults to educate age them out if wanting to do that when they are older too.

The trans activists are intent on creating a cohort of sterile, damaged people with faulty boundaries, no parents to safeguard and support them reduced life expectancy and serious health issues. Why in a million years would you argue in favour of that?

Sadly it sounds like your ‘MA’ has lead to utter nonsense and faulty thinking. If you think that not allowing a child bodily autonomy is ABUSE then you have taken a very wrong path somewhere along the line. Ask for your money back.

Try reading the account. His behaviour was abusive but like so many men, that abusive behaviour is ignored by people keen to fete his trans identity.

Why? It’s disrespectful to me, frankly. I conceived, birthed, nurtured and named her. I do not wish to capitulate to an ideology I disagree with, and so

I am really (REALLY!) GC but you sound really intense and one of those my-way-or-the-high-way types. This never works. Can't get on board with that.

Yes, men are men, and women are women, and we should dress accordingly. I'm starting to build quite a picture of your views! Do you also have rules about hairstyles?

OTOH I bet you're also one of those posters who goes on about how in your day David Bowie et al wore eyeliner and nobody cared. But that's not useful right now so we can forget that and all go 'Eurgh, what a perve!'

BTW I'm the poster you were replying to. Care to point to where I was lauding trans people for being happy and brave and living their best lives? I think I was just pointing out that people who trash every single thing about trans identity are actually just as toxic and extreme as some on the other side of the debate. You seem to live in a world almost entirely populated by sex criminals though, so I suppose it's understandable.

They haven't 'started' using them. They've been using them for nigh on 20 years now.

Of course, not everyone will agree on the reclamation. But it was an active choice that was made by a range of groups.

Paywalled.

Archive supplied upthread.

I agree!

But unlike a normal marriage breakup due to abusive or coercive behaviour by the husband - trans widows get no sympathy (except from people who actually believe women are a sex class).

Have you ever read any of the trans widow threads and seen the litany of abuse perpetrated on these women but so many people - those around them and wider society, refuse them support and even vilify them for not excitedly embracing their new ‘lesbian’ status. I have seen the fallout on a family like this first hand - way before I knew anything about the GRA and assault on women’s rights. It’s awful.

I can link you to some FWR threads if you are interested in what actually happens?

It isn't though.
It's highly abusive and gaslighting. The husband often says (and this is mainstream trans ideology, so don't try to tell me it doesn't happen) he was ALWAYS a woman. The wife didn't marry a woman, she married a man. He's still a man, but if she disagrees with him being a woman, SHE'S the one who's abusive. Talk about DARVO.
In some cases it involves trying to BE the wife - adopting her style of dress and even her name.
And in many case it isn't the husband exiting, he would MUCH rather stay and still be cooked and cleaned for and have the childcare done.

It's also abusive to the children to tell them he's their other mum now, that they must call him by his new name or call him mum. Just as children who are fostered shouldn't be forced to call someone who isn't their parent, mum or dad, and children who have a step parent shouldn't be forced to call their step parent mum or dad, children should be encouraged (because it's no good telling a 3 year old "you can call me dad but I'd prefer mum") to use the original names.

YANBU OP
I have read all your posts and FWIW, I agree with you. On both the way you’re dealing with your daughter’s current situation and your stance on the toxic ideology.
I don’t think you’ve said how old she is anywhere but I feel like you can’t let adolescents have complete free rein. There has to be a balance of allowing them freedoms to explore who they are whilst still being their anchor to keep them grounded

So to be clear, back in the days when those words were still being used or were very recently used as a homophobic slur, some bright spark decided to also use those words but claim that they are not a slur?

But then some lesbian and gay people said

“No I don’t like the use of those words as I find it offensive and/or reminiscent of homophobia I have recently suffered”

and the ‘progressive’ bright sparks said

“Get lost gay people , we’ve decided this is what we are doing, you’ve just got to suck it up”.

Apart from the fact that the LGB community was only railroaded into adding the mysterious ‘TQ+’ onto their letters in 2015, the rest of your claim just doesn’t add up. And why do you think it is ok to listen to one subgroup who makes decisions about ‘reclaiming’ words etc but ignore the wishes of another subgroup who are very much upset by it?

Would you do the same with people trying to reclaim racial slurs? Maybe we could all just not call each other names that people don’t like. Like the made up nonsense that is ‘cis’.

Just a thought.

@BundleBoogie clearly you're not part of that community or you'd know that terms like Dyke and Queer are mainstream and have been used for a long time.

You can of course disagree with it. But it doesn't alter the fact.

Lesbian organisations:

Dykes on Bikes - motor bike group
Techno Dyke - website
Dykes Delight with Gay Abandon - weekly dance events
Dykes to Watch Out For - comic
Dykes Delight - comic

Everywhere is Queer
Queer Nation
Queer Disco
Queer Art

Etc etc etc

And as for cis, it's in the Cambridge dictionary.

cis adjective (GENDER)

short for cisgender : used to describe a person whose gender matches the body they were born with:
They stress that trans women and cis women are all women.
If you are cis you feel comfortable with your assigned birth sex and do not identify as another gender.

Given that that definition thinks sex is assigned at birth, I think we can safely say it’s not worth the paper it’s written on.

Oxford is better:
cisgender: designating a person whose sense of personal identity and gender correspond to his or her sex at birth.

Nice use of “his or her” there 🤣

Fair enough!

Just because something is in the dictionary, doesn’t mean people will automatically be ok with being called it

Theres a lot of words in the dictionary I wouldn’t like to be referred to as

What I like about the Oxford definition is that it’s clear it doesn’t refer to everyone who isn’t trans, which is how lots of trans activists like to use it.

It's not coerced. It's just speech you disagree with. Dyke, queer, homo have been reclaimed in order to defuse the power. That was much more successful than fighting back against the terms.

I never said I was part of that community but I know gay people who are upset and offended by the use of these words so your claim of ‘reclaiming’ them being successful as an example of changing language is false. I note you are very happy to impose offensive words on them.

And just because the activists who work at the Cambridge dictionary have been allowed to bully their bosses into allowing such a nonsensical circular non definition to be published doesn’t mean it’s a thing.

Any further comment of why you think it’s abuse to not allow children to have bodily autonomy re. trans issues - presumably you support children having sex or getting tattoos? Care to explain why?

@BundleBoogie, I'm not responsible for the gay community reclaiming those words. They are widely accepted. Obviously not by your friendship group. Fair enough.

No thanks to the invitation to comment on other issues.

I suppose I could trump you on your level of education. An MA? Hmm. But that I'm more highly qualified than you doesn't really matter.

Even with just an MA, you really ought to realise not all opinions are equal. Some opinions are wrong. And when you come across someone gainsaying your opinions, it's not enough to say, "Well, that's what I think."

What you ought to do (something the people who taught you on that MA course should have explained to you) is examine the reasons behind those opinions in order to test them. If these reasons don't hold up, you should change your opinion.

I've offered reasons why your opinion about people's self-definition of who and what they are - what their identity amounts to - is mistaken. People are often mistaken about themselves, I have claimed, contrary to your opinion about self-definition being trustworthy. That you offer no reasons in support of your claim (instead retreating to "Everyone is entitled to their own opinion") is evidence you're mistaken in the opinion you hold about this.

I'm fairly sure you understand. Yes, it's hard to admit you're wrong. Sometimes it is really difficult to admit to yourself you made a mistake. In the end, though, it's worth examining what you think (particularly, albeit not uniquely, in the light of criticism from others) in order to find your mistakes and change your opinion.

If I'm wrong, I'd like you to explain why - I'd like you to give reasons why I'm wrong, that is. I already know our opinions differ: offering reasons why an interlocutor's opinion is mistaken is precisely the opposite of a "dictatorial and totalitarian" response ... and far from being, as you claim, "not conducive to a debate", is actually exactly and explicitly what a debate consists in.

You're wrong, I say (people, particularly children, generally cannot be trusted regarding how they describe themselves, I claim). Do you have any reasons to advance to show I'm mistaken? (I suspect that not ...)

Refusing to allow a child to have autonomy over their body and their self-identification is in my opinion abuse

but you’ve already asserted that refusing bodily autonomy for children is abuse. I’m asking you how you came to that conclusion.

The examples I gave are not ‘other issues’, they are examples of bodily autonomy that you have claimed must be given to children or be called an abuser.

I guess we could apply all this to flat earthers couldn't we? Flat earthers are entitled to their opinions and can state that no one is going to change their minds. Fine. But it doesn't mean their position has any validity.

.

Here is an incredibly clear and concise primer for anyone who is getting tripped up in the (deliberate) language traps TRA ideology lays out.

https://sexandgenderintro.com/

I particularly like the clarity around regardless of how language is hijacked, regardless of how that language is policed, there will always be a female sex class, men will never be a part of that and that will always be the fundamental difference in our classification of humans.