To make my daughter do ballet

[Hairyragemachine]

When I was 5, my mum enrolled me in ballet classes. I went to about six, then decided I didn't want to do it, so my mum took me out of them.

I now have a 5 year old, who has just done her grade 1 ballet exam. However she now says she doesn't want to do it any more. There doesn't seem to be an underlying reason per se, I think she just finds it a drag to give up an hour of saturday morning. This week we had tears and a tantrum and eventually I gave up forcing it, as she had a bad night and very busy week.

But should I allow her to just quit all together? Given it's so good for balance, confidence (she is a performer!), friendships (she has lots there) and discipline, posture... should I make her go for a bit longer?

I wish my mum had not allowed me to just give up - or come to think of it to give up piano, violin, french, guides, tap dancing - lots of hobbies which I wish I was good at now and had stuck at. I needed her to be my self discipline until I was old enough to be my own.

Or - is it mean to force a 5 year old to ballet (she also does tap and modern) when she doesn't want to go? What if she is missing out on a career as an international prima ballerina? Let me know what you think please!

Yes indeed for the boys, just a different version because most boys would run a mile rather than wear the same as the girls. The majority of boys have short hair anyway so don't need a bun (if long hair they need to tie it back), and for clothing they either have a tight-fitting t-shirt or a white leotard, with snug-fitting shorts. The older ones wear a dance belt and either an all-in-one, or leotard and male tights. All the clothing is snug fitting so the teacher can see their lines.

Sorry I wasn’t clear. When I mentioned the boys, I was referring to little boys’ ballet uniform, typically a shorts and shirt combination that fits more loosely than a leotard. I have no issue with little girls running around in leotards if they are comfortable, but they should be allowed to wear underwear and/or looser clothing if they choose; I don’t think that the line argument for the girls’ leotards has real validity.

why ballet? Would you be so keen if you had a son?

I ask that question because the 'posture and good for you' thing only ever extends to ballet being good for girls.

Get her out playing a team sport which doesn't require her to look in the mirror at herself, examine her body in very tight fitting clothes, be relatively static whilst turn her legs into position's which are not great for physical well being.

@Hairyragemachine "What if she is missing out on a career as an international prima ballerina? "

If she doesn't love ballet she will never make a prima ballerina. It takes way too much dedication and hard work and you have to really, really want it

For most professionals it's a short career and not much pay isn't it?

I also don't like the ballet 'industry' because the men nearly always end up with the director, choreographer roles when they retire, even though there's way more competition for women to enter the professional world in the first place. Seems very old fashioned

Ballet is totally subjective and therefore not the same as sport competition.

Especially dance competitions which are known for their subjective judgement.

The RAD shorts are definitely not what I’d call loose fitting! More like ⚽️⚽️ crushers! And the T-shirt is leotard-tight too.

I don’t disagree about it being not the most pleasant garb, but they do need it to see the muscles working correctly and I guess it’s no worse than swimsuits.

Ballet is not “totally subjective”. The artistic expression may be partially subjective, but the physical expression is definitely not.

Try modern dance or Street dance something quicker and more fun

Well my daughter is terrible at sports and great at ballet so that’s her moment. It’s not different in impact to the child.

I have to disagree with you. Even different companies in different countries will have different views on what is the perfect physical line and even then different choreographers and repertoire teachers will have different views on the line.

It's incredibly subjective.

I think it is very different to some sports. For example when you run your leg will be pushed to it's limits but within the parameters of it's normal function.
Turning a leg outwards 90 degrees from the hip and landing from big jumps is not good for the body. Whipping your head to spot day after day on fouette turns is terrible for the neck.

I agree that gymnastics is probably worse.

Many sports at junior level are better for the body than ballet. This is before you take into account the mental effect of the very narrow aesthetic body requirements which put young girls into critiquing every little bit of their bodies in front of mirrors. Sport is not like this.

I would also argue that ballet doesn't really allow for the dancer to give their own artistic expression. The choreographer yes, the dancer no. Ballet dancers are literally told exactly what to do, from the steps, what to wear, even how to breathe or look with their eyes. They are the canvas and paints not the painter.

Well the question from the OP was ‘should I force my very busy daughter to continue in an activity she doesn’t enjoy because I wish I did it as a child and I think she might make a career out of it’ and the clear answer is ‘absolutely not’. And that would be the answer for pretty much any hobby. She’s 5. If she doesn’t enjoy it, she won’t want to do it and she won’t improve at it.

Then it went to all the reasons other people don’t like ballet specifically. All I can say to that is that I’m not a dancer, but my daughter is. I have never seen her happier than when she’s dancing and she has loved watching and doing ballet since she was 3. No pressure from me - I actually say no to extra classes regularly as I think it’s important she has time for her friends and homework and family and hiking and reading and everything else. But when she is dancing, she’s at peace. All the things you’d think would be damaging - the hair, the outfits, the pickiness… she thrives in it. Makes 0 sense to me but I can see it.

And she works really hard and does well and excels in shows and in her exams - and she’s still not good enough for a career as a professional ballerina so there’s really no reason for anyone to worry about missing out on that opportunity! That is really, really rare and only would happen through a lot
of hard work, a huge financial commitment and quite a lot of luck.

To be boring and invoke the Steven McRae doc again (I'm not obsessed, it's just I've watched it in the past couple of days so it's very much front of mind!), there's a sequence when he's rehearsing with a choreographer and he tells her about how one of his ankles isn't working or responding properly since his injury. She says something like, 'As we get older, we all have things that don't respond any more; that's where the artistry comes in,' meaning that you can/have to find a slightly different way of moving in order to still achieve the effect and express your character to the audience. I found that really interesting; I've always thought of ballet as being very prescriptive, but it seems that there is some (if not all that much) room for manoeuvre.

Well I’m kind of on the fence.

To me it’s a bit like music. You can’t just play different notes but must stick to what’s on the page. But anyone who has sat through children’s concerts knows you can play every single note in order and it sounds like well… notes played in order. Bong bong bing. Then you can listen to someone play who really puts feeling into it- the dynamics, the lightness of touch, a slight lingering on a certain note - and it’s almost a different piece of music.

Ballet is the same. You can fling your arms into an arabesque like an automaton that’s had it’s button pressed, or you can extend them in an arabesque in a way that conveys a yearning for something just out of reach.

I asked my daughter about this last night after her ballet class and she just stared at me incredulously and said 'of course everything should be perfect but if you don't convey any feeling it's just not going to look beautiful' and then explained to me exactly how differently the different people in her ballet class look while doing the exact same thing. So for someone who breathes this form of dance, tiny differences are massive.

Am assuming there are similar differences people see in various other forms of art that would be invisible to most.

personally i would let a child drop a hobby but the understanding is that a different activity is going to take it’s place. i.e. no they can’t drop it so they can watch more tv, hang at the mall, game etc

I’m wondering if this little five year old is needing a bit of Saturday downtime though? School is tiring for those early years and she’s already doing two forms of dance from what I understand.

Activities are good but so are rest and play.

Yes, but the feeling has to be conveyed in an exacting way if you are professional. Putting your own feeling into it is incredibly limited, some girls may be better at dancing with the prescribed feeling that has been taught than others though, thats for sure. If you dance at the Paris Opera you would need to convey in an exacting way, their way. There would be a different feeling, nuance if you are at the Royal Ballet in London. Or Denmark which has it’s own Bournonville style which is far more stylised and the dancers have to have every head incline and subtle finger placment in that style. As I said, that includes every movement and breathe, the slight look behind the eyes and nuance of the shape, there is no room for individuality in the corps de ballet.
So, if I watched a dancer I would likely notice their training style, the ballet steps which the choreographer has created, the costume design etc. not the dancers individual creativity.

And that is what most little girls doing ballet (who are a good school) are training towards, an exacting style depending on the exam board they take.

I would ask her if she enjoys ballet immediately after her class. Sometimes she might not want to go to ballet but might enjoy it when she gets there.

Absolutely - that's exactly what my daughter loves about it. There's a very specific goal.

At international principal / soloist level, yes. But you will find that the great companies have their own accepted 'house' style - Bournonville, Ashton, Vaganova, Balanchine etc for the corps.

It is subjective at professional level, but unless someone is taught correct technique from the outset, they won't get anywhere.

Virtuosity does come into play once dancers reach soloist level, in much the same way that a director would give a starring actor free rein. Not so much if you are one of a hundred film extras.

Of course dancers get told what to wear, and of course they have to follow the choreography. That is literally their job.There is a stock of costumes for the production, exactly as there would be for a film, a play or a musical, and the choreographer knows what they want the dancers to do. Members of an orchestra don't get to choose how to play a piece, the conductor tells them what they want. It is only when you get to soloist level that you can put your own interpretation on the performance. You can't break out on your own if you are one of a group all doing the same thing, can you? Or Montagus and Capulets in a swordfight, if you want a male example - doing your own thing would be downright dangerous. It is all choreographed to the nth degree.

Even as a soloist the exact movement is choreographed not just the step but the eye movements, the breath, the eye brow raise, the slight pause before the movement, it is all choreographed, not much room at all for artistic expression IMO.