To absolutely not want closer ties to Europe

[Viviennemary]

What is the matter with Stammer toadying up to the EU. We voted Out. Has he forgotten. I switched the TV off when I heard the word contribution and free movement. Here we go again. Shafted and ripped off at every turn and following their dumb rules. It's groundhog day. I'm furious.

I have been accused of not respecting our democracy but it seems alright for remainers not to respect it. If you want another way of voting that is a different argument. Either you respect the way we do democratic votes in this country or you don't. Obviously you don't.
And your last question is just silly. The EU deliberately made it as difficult as possible for us to leave in order to discourage others from trying to do so. It has worked so far, but it won't work for ever. We may be the first country to leave the EU but we won't be the last.

I’m pretty sure we will be the last. Other countries have the benefit of seeing what a clusterfuck it is.

Obviously I respect democracy if it’s real. Voting should have been mandatory for such a vital decision.

What part of freedom of movement don’t you like. I would have thought it a good thing for young people, for example to go abroad for their education and general broadening of horizons. This issue is the one thing young people felt so strongly about and which caused so much resentment against their elders, who had presumably finished their travelling. Remember, this is a two way street. Btw I am not ‘young’ I’m 69, the dreaded baby boomer one!

A quick visit over to comments on the Sun or mails comments pages gives you an idea of exactly how many utterly deluded Neanderthals or those 20 years out of a working environment who still think brittania rules the waves. you are dealing with - those peddling this nonsense to a captive audience aren’t daft - see some of the posts on this page too - they have ulterior motives for wanting a ‘US’ style dog eat dog economy, and have managed to frame it in such a way that it looks like plucky little UK sticking two fingers up to Brussels and those of us who they see as ‘the elite’ - whereas the ones peddling it often are indeed ‘the elite’ - Farage in his Chelsea house with his European passport, Tice in Dubai etc , Rees Mogg in his manor with all his off shore money - if Joe bloggs in Scunthorpe thinks they really gives a shit about him I ve got a bridge to sell them - Farage is just Trump 2 , except unlike Trump we don’t have many ‘Trump cards to play’ despite Farage thinking we are some huge colonial big cheese.

This is very much true. I live in the UK now, but still keep up with the news in mainland Europe. The general attitude in my home country was that the UK electorate was tricked into punching itself in the face with Brexit and that the deregulation from EU standards, combined with the UK's bizarre obsession with inflicting austerity on itself, has ended up hurting the poorest parts of the UK the hardest.

No other member country of the EU has watched the total chaos that Brexit caused and the impoverishing effects of a withdrawal on a formerly stable country and thought to itself it is a good idea to leave.

I love the UK and the British people, which is why it has been made home for the last few decades, but you really do have a tendency to believe in naked emperors who promise you unicorns...

Wow so you would vote against your own interests I.e having a free at point of access health service, DEI which aims for equal pay and access to jobs for WOMEN and at least a government that protects workers rights.

Reform don’t believe in the above, Farage always votes against bills that support workers rights and wants to do away with our NHS. Not to mention he fiddled his expenses when he was a MEP. He hasn’t held many constituents meetings because he is too busy earning money for his second job.

When we left the EU most of the laws we adhered to became UK law. We need the EU as a trading partner. And the EU have higher standards for food production and farming. Don’t forget Reform would have you eat ammonia chicken from the US. I voted for Brexit but we need this deal.

Excellent post.

What I don't understand is why nobody invests in same type of SM influencing as Trump/Musk/Putin & co do? it's a well known tried and tested technology, why it's not used to influence/educate the ones you listed in this post?

Something I think about a lot (as an American in the uk) and I think the short of it is that the people, including foreign actors, who largely fund and seed that kind of social media are actively wanting to destroy western alliances and democratic forms of government with its checks, balances, regulation and oversight. Mostly in pursuit of even more power and money for themselves.

If you look at the US and the philosophy behind the people who are driving/funding this, it slots in nicely with Brexit and the rise of the far right.

If you mean Australia/NZ, i agree but the more i look at the EU deal, it does seem a decent one for the UK... subject to the details.

If it had been negotiated by the Tories, fwiw i'd have supported it.

Wonder what happened to the cheaper food, clothing and footwear that Jacob Rees Mogg was droning on about? It is interesting that none, not even one of the much promised "Brexit Benefits" have come to fruition, but speaking of fruit we have bendy bananas so guess we have that small victory to cling to 😂

Makes sense, England a contributor, the rest receivers.

Which EU rules don't you like?

Read up on what the Spectator, among other publications, wrote about the Erasmus - 'The problem with Erasmus is not just the cost' - disproportionally benefitting wealthy children, who can afford it anyway, doing nothing for the needy and talented children was the verdict.

@nearlylovemyusername it kind of is - but at the moment nearly all large mainstream media is owned by those to the right of politics - so there are people more to the centre and left with significant money too but they tend not to be media owners and that’s where people are getting the money to pay for trolling/PR etc - let’s say we set up an equivalent of GB news but more centre left - hate to say it but most people who are politically that way don’t spend hours fixated on a channel in the daytime in the way a lot of GB news audience is - they read less physical newspapers, they tend to have a wider range of ‘stuff they do’ - and at the moment in a country that has been on the decline both in standards, influence, satisfaction then a lot of people are latching onto anything that seems ‘a change/radical’ that offers up reasons ( however wrong they are ) why things are shit - a lot of it I still feel comes down to the initial fact of Thatcher selling off what should be public assets and not investing in upskiiling /infrastructure in declining industrial areas - it comes down to creating a false feeling of austerity under Cameron ( but then mysteriously had £400bn to spare on a none needed Brexit) etc etc - it comes down to Tory political self preservation a great deal of the time. We could actually have learned a lot from how Germany or Netherlands did things- but you know that means acknowledging some European places did things ‘better’

Funny how many on the 'right will moan about all the tax being paid by the wealthy... so why shouldn't they get something back?

However real world is now that the wealthy can still get their children into work/uni's abroad, meanwhile the less well off, inc many of the m/c's can no longer do any of this..... the children i knew who took part in Erasmus were from middle income families eg mum a nurse, dad a small business owner or in middle management.

...i'd call not being in Erasmus "an own goal" so cutting off the heads of the tallest poppies sort of thing, surely the answer is to improve access, rather than leaving the scheme?

If Brexit was so good, people wouldn't spend so much energy defending it. The benefits would be self evident.

@Alexandra2001 Everyone had access to apply for Erasmus via University exchanges. The problem is that MFL students are more likely to come from middle class families who access better schools and value MFLs and also have DCs who have the confidence to go. Plenty just sat back and did not bother to apply for anything abroad because it’s “not for the likes of us”. My DN for a start. It was a great scheme and very much improved greater understanding.

Turing is means tested but the better off will still go. They are just wanting it more and you can dangle anything you like in front of the others, but they are still not interested. Many parents voted Brexit so why do we expect their dc to value time in Europe?

@Perplexed20. Ha yes, the opposite side of the coin to ‘if the eU was so good why would people vote to leave’. They would be coming up with lists of what was so much better now- but they can’t - because it isn’t

EU law very much does exist and it is a requirement of member states to comply with EU law and not to legislate in contradiction to it.

They are not the tallest poppies, they are average-sized poppies or even shorter-sized poppies, being held high by the parents, who for some strange reasons, are counted as 'middle income' with a business-owner father and nurse mother.

"The Spectator", are you honestly referencing this publication to support your argument that Erasmus will only benefit the "spoilt bastards", with a straight face? The publication whose Commentariat are the very epitome of the wealthy, privileged and elite, including James Delingpole who in the past wrote about Oxford University's academic standards falling due to an influx of working class students creating a “PC monoculture”!

I'm sorry but referring to The Spectator to support any argument against the wealthy elites is just pure comedy😂

Goodness, labels are really important to you aren't they!

Parents support their children, not exactly a shocker is it!

I started to write the same thing but couldn't be bothered, and you've said it perfectly 👏

We give Europe our fish and lots of money. What did they give us. Absolutely nothing except a headache.

I see Tufton st are back in action on all forums it seems against anyone daring to think the gvt are actually seeking some individual benefits that will benefit industry and consumers- strangely if the Tory’s or Reform were making such deals they would be lauding such arrangements. Let’s face it the Tory’s were kings of poor agreements that favoured one side - and it wasn’t the UK - The Aussies were laughing at us.