Starmer is about to reverse Brexit

[TheQuirkyMaker]

Is is right that an unpopular govt can reverse the democratic wishes of the UK to have nothing to do with Europe?

Why should the UK ever have had a say in who other countries elect??? That's not democratic!

Johnson didn't campaign for a hard Brexit; he, Rees-Mogg and even Farridge all stressed the importance of a good deal on continued smooth trading. Sadly, they and those in charge of it were lazy incompetents, who didn't bother to negotiate, assuming tha everything would fall into our lap.

When it was too late, they changed their tune to, "No deal is better than a bad deal." Again, too stupid to realise that that was the worst outcome.

So by that argument we were dealing in the EU with people we didn't elect. How can that be democratic?
So basically it was just a free for all where everyone had different agendas !

Fundamentally wrong. Without the EU it would be a free for all with different agendas.

Within the EU all member states are represented and working on the same agendas, even with differing opinions.

Why draw lines at country level ? There are MPs in the UK parliament that I didn’t vote for. There are MPs from Scotland & Wales.

I always find it baffling when simpletons frame the EU as “them” vs “us”. As members there is only “us” and we were as much as part of it as every other member.

My MP has to negotiate with MPs from other counties that I didn't elect. It's just a free for all where everyone has different agendas!

Your understanding of democracy is so infantile it's astonishing.

@Alexandra2001 "! know plenty about farming and the accounting methods used plus they also get approx £4 billion in subsidy... but its never enough..."

Again you seem to have no idea about farming.

Don't you believe in food security ?

Farmers invest thousands of pounds in a crop and with the best will in the world they can't recoup their costs if the weather is against them.

As for using expensive equipment - they have consortiums that share the cost of hiring such vehicles for harvests in rotation. That's why in the "pea season" they harvest peas 24/7

UK isn't like the prairies where each farm owns 1,500+ acres. The average UK farm is 213 acres, so they share equipment.

The ones you have seen in London have probably been loaned by companies who are glad of the advertising opportunity.

@HangryLikeTheHulk I always find it baffling when simpletons frame the EU as “them” vs “us"

So who do you think are the "simpletons"?

What are you taking about ?

"Do you want to sell cattle prods to the Iranian Secret Police?"

You appear to be wandering into the realms of fantasy,

Your ad hominem attack shows you have no valid counter to my argument.

People who believe the UK’s EU membership was “them” vs “us”.

So anyone who has an opinion that doesn't agree with yours is a "simpleton"?

Don't you respect the right of people to express their own opinion, even if you don't agree with it?

If you join a club - let’s say a knitting club - then you are part of that club. It’s not you vs all the other knitters who somehow conspire against you.

So viewing membership of an international organisation in those terms demonstrates irrationality, simplistic understanding, a victim complex, underlying xenophobia, a closed mind, and a lobotomy-tier weltanschauung.

Nope, you're showing a great deal of ignorance here.

Farm size average is very misleading, covers everything from a 5 acre small holding to a 3000 acre East Anglian arable farm and no farmer puts all his efforts into one harvest/crop...

Contractors are used for occasional specialist machinery, yes there is some sharing of equipment but it is not v common & you still have no comment on how Farmers, in poverty according to you, can afford all those tractors, transported to London, at a cost of '000s and other cities for pointless and disruptive protests.

They still get around 4billion in subsidy... which industry gets that sort of help??

If we truly wanted food security, we wouldn't have left the EU, which has meant we have had to sign unfavourable trade deals, which undermine UK agri & food standards.

What's interesting about this is that I do not remember farmers protesting about Brexit prior to the referendum. I'm happy to be proved wrong btw, just there has been far more protest over the inheritance tax changes than there was about Brexit.

@Needtosoundoffandbreathe my recollection (though that’s all it is, a recollection. I’ve not researched it) is that farms and rural Communities voted leave in general.

Yeah not all farmers voted for Brexit, thats true and the NFU took a neutral stance, however, you re right, rural communities voted for Brexit.

A farmer on R4's Farming Today said he lost £43k in CAP payments... also lost markets in Europe too.

Yet all we hear about is a tax they won't even pay, they'll be dead & long past caring.... just as we don't hear about the good profits in Dairy and Meat production now.

In the first two sentences of my post I used an example to demonstrate just how weak your argument was.

That you didn't recognise that merely reinforces the third sentence in my post.

If you join a club - let’s say a knitting club - then you are part of that club. It’s not you vs all the other knitters who somehow conspire against you.

But the knitting club is telling me I can only buy wool from companies they have negotiated with. I've found a new seller for my knitting patterns elsewhere and the knitting club is threatening to fine my membership.

I want to sell some babies items I've created, but the knitting club is setting the price I can sell and now they are asking where I got the buttons from, are the needles imperial or metric (why should they care?) They want to come round my house and set the agenda for what I can buy and sell, telling me I can't just do this kind of thing on my own without their permission.

It's all a bit much...I want to trade patterns and ideas with this knitting club, but I dont want them coming over to my house to demand control of my finances, my stock, my buyers, my trading partners...I want to leave this knitting club, it's not worth the hassle.

brexitbarbie · Yesterday 22:23

You appear to be wandering into the realms of fantasy,

You bemoaned the fact that the EU has regulations on trade with other countries and I gave you examples of trades which HAVE been carried out.

To point out that they aren't in place to oppress people and upset Farridge.

You can crticise my argument by all means but posting nasty insults attacking my intellect says a lot more about your lack of a coherent argument.

To go back to your "knitting club" scenario.

You are obviously too young to remember the EEC and have to rely on second-hand skewed pro European accounts that have re-written history somewhat.

As I recall we didn't join a "knitting club", we actually joined a crochet club which, without our full knowledge and consent morphed into a "knitting club".
One minute we were happily crocheting d'oilies and bonnets for babies then the next minute we found ourselves subject to a set of rules imposed by people we didn't appoint.
We had to stop making d'oilies. and knit jumpers and cardigans. Not only that but our needles had to be a certain size and our wool a certain colour and be bought from a certain supplier. There were rules made up about buttons and how they should be attached for H & S reasons.
I could go on but you get my drift.

Moving towards Europe was always a bone of contention.
The crucial Parliamentary votes in 1971-2 were only narrowly won. In 1975, a new Labour government held a first in/out referendum. This seemed to produce a clear-cut result with 2/3 of the British population voting to stay within the EEC.

Yet the argument continued, with Labour fighting the 1983 general election on a platform of withdrawing from the Community.

Then Labour would subsequently move towards a pro-European position during the later 1980s and 1990s, this was counterbalanced by the slide of the Conservative Party into ever-stronger Euroscepticism

Brexiteers didn't invent Euroscepticism, it had been alive and well for decades.

Just realised I have crossposted with @LynneTheseAreSexPeople who makes similar valid points.

Brilliant - love it ! 😆

So you left the club with no arrangements in place, struggle to get good deals for your wool and buttons, lose a lot of money.

You could have negotiated better deals whilst in the club, you had an important say in the decision making process and a veto

Now you stand alone in your knitted flag searching for benefits and all you find is a few imperial sized buttons.

It's quite a good idea for the knitting club to ask whether you are using non flammable yarn and buttons which are safe for babies.... And of course as a member, you get a say in deciding the rules.

!. Yes

2.Not if I am outvoted by other Members who have an interest in pushing bigger needles for example

"You could have negotiated better deals whilst in the club, you had an important say in the decision making process and a veto"

Not when other members formed cartels and used "block voting" to get their way.