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Starmer is about to reverse Brexit

806 replies

TheQuirkyMaker · 19/05/2025 11:27

Is is right that an unpopular govt can reverse the democratic wishes of the UK to have nothing to do with Europe?

OP posts:
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13
Coolasfeck · 22/05/2025 08:58

I really don’t understand the ‘Brexit betrayal!’ people. We are far poorer now than before Brexit. There are now more illegal immigrants coming over on boats because of Brexit.

What do these people want, and why are we continuing to pay them attention?

TheGrimSmile · 22/05/2025 08:59

If only!

TheGrimSmile · 22/05/2025 09:02

Also, in democracies, we get to change our minds. If this truly was democratic then we'd have another vote now - 5 years plus later. The people can now see what a shitshow it has been and would vote remain.

andtheworldrollson · 22/05/2025 09:15

Nearly 10 years since the brexit vote and no one can actually identify how it’s made things better

labour are unpopular because they can’t make things better NOW and when they want to change things to make it better you are upset ?

grow up

mouchie · 22/05/2025 09:19

TheQuirkyMaker · 19/05/2025 11:27

Is is right that an unpopular govt can reverse the democratic wishes of the UK to have nothing to do with Europe?

Let's hope so!!!!!🙏

inkognithia · 22/05/2025 09:36

Coolasfeck · 22/05/2025 08:58

I really don’t understand the ‘Brexit betrayal!’ people. We are far poorer now than before Brexit. There are now more illegal immigrants coming over on boats because of Brexit.

What do these people want, and why are we continuing to pay them attention?

It's a curious obsession, isn't it?
I'm not a qualified psychologist, but my suspicion is that many Brexiteers double-down on their position - despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary - because at some level it's a defiant pushback against being repeatedly and resoundingly proven wrong. In much the same way some children will continue in an untenable assertion even after its been dismantled.

But it's a ridiculous position to take and helps nobody, least of all themselves.
I don't think any reasonable person would continue to blame, or hold contempt for, any Brexiteer that says "I made a mistake", and a great many have.
It's only people who still insist that Brexit was beneficial and that they are absolutely, definitely going to be receiving their free unicorn any day now that draw the ire and irritation of the rest of us.

cantkeepawayforever · 22/05/2025 09:40

I think any ire I have is against people who shut down any discussion (in which they know they would have to admit the damage caused by Brexit) with ‘it’s all done now, anyway, and you can’t change it’ in a ‘yes, I stole and ate your ice cream but it’s too late to get another so neeeer’ tone.

pointythings · 22/05/2025 09:40

@brexitbarbie what are you hoping to achieve by posting that pathetic sneer from The Spectator? Everyone knows where they stand.

And why do you want to be poorer and have fewer opportunities?

StandFirm · 22/05/2025 09:44

TheQuirkyMaker · 19/05/2025 11:27

Is is right that an unpopular govt can reverse the democratic wishes of the UK to have nothing to do with Europe?

What a government with a legitimate mandate (which is the case here) should do is act in the best interest of the people. Getting closer to the EU is the first truly sensible and beneficial move in a very long time. By contrast, Reform are popular but they will sell the UK to the US for parts if they get into government. Sometimes representative democracy actually works.

inkognithia · 22/05/2025 09:59

I have a question for you, @brexitbarbie. Do you consider yourself a patriot?

I suspect you and I may have different interpretations of that word, but leaving that aside for the moment I'd suggest a patriot might be defined as somebody who has the best interests of their country at heart; somebody who wants their country to do well on the world stage.

Now consider we are given a simple, binary choice:

  1. Our country can make itself poorer, strip away large amounts of international funding, dismantle the tariff free trade of goods that allow so many of our business to thrive and survive, restrict people's rights of movement, cause stress and trauma to many European citizens living in the UK, wreck our own economy and cause serious labour shortages throughout many of our essential services, reignite tensions between ourselves and Ireland, then hand the comparatively small amount of subscription money we are paying over to further enrich the very workshy grifters who are promising us unicorns in the first place.

  2. Not do the first thing.

Which of those choices do you think might have the best interests of the country at heart? Which one sounds more patriotic to you?

BustingBaoBun · 22/05/2025 10:04

It's quite amusing the see all the Remoaners Remainers frothing at the mouth because 5 years on they still can't accept they lost.

You're absolutely right. I can't. You may think it's funny, I don't. An act of self sabotage never amuses me. And after all these years not one Brexiteer has been able to point out a tangible benefit. Not one Brexiteer, not one benefit. What does that tell you??

To be honest, I find it amusing to see the sheer desperation of Brexiteers trying to justify their position. It's laughable! (and their numbers are dwindling by the day)

And what I have seen time and time again... people I know who voted to Leave, now say they either can't remember how they voted (hahaha) and no, they didn't vote Leave, they voted to remain! Pull the other one, you were crowing about it when the result came in! They are embarrassed to admit they contributed to this act of self sabotage quite obviously!

countingthedays945 · 22/05/2025 10:05

I wish he could but unfortunately your non sensible vote has caused too much damage to undo at this point. What benefits has Brexit offered and delivered for you out of interest?

MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 22/05/2025 10:09

BustingBaoBun · 22/05/2025 10:04

It's quite amusing the see all the Remoaners Remainers frothing at the mouth because 5 years on they still can't accept they lost.

You're absolutely right. I can't. You may think it's funny, I don't. An act of self sabotage never amuses me. And after all these years not one Brexiteer has been able to point out a tangible benefit. Not one Brexiteer, not one benefit. What does that tell you??

To be honest, I find it amusing to see the sheer desperation of Brexiteers trying to justify their position. It's laughable! (and their numbers are dwindling by the day)

And what I have seen time and time again... people I know who voted to Leave, now say they either can't remember how they voted (hahaha) and no, they didn't vote Leave, they voted to remain! Pull the other one, you were crowing about it when the result came in! They are embarrassed to admit they contributed to this act of self sabotage quite obviously!

I can and do accept that we lost. However, I'm still fucking angry about it, I still think it was a monumentally stupid decision and I will never forgive the people who were responsible.

BustingBaoBun · 22/05/2025 10:14

MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 22/05/2025 10:09

I can and do accept that we lost. However, I'm still fucking angry about it, I still think it was a monumentally stupid decision and I will never forgive the people who were responsible.

Actually, maybe you're right. That's my sentiment too. I am angry. Of course I accept it, I have to! I worded my post wrong.

I will never forget the morning after, my adult DCs were so upset with the decision having close connections and having worked in Europe and benefited from EU opportunities.

I really miss being in the EU and I'm still, years later, waiting for those sunny uplands that idiot Johnson talked about.

inkognithia · 22/05/2025 10:17

MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 22/05/2025 10:09

I can and do accept that we lost. However, I'm still fucking angry about it, I still think it was a monumentally stupid decision and I will never forgive the people who were responsible.

Absolutely agree. I had my European citizenship stolen by these halfwits and, as a patriot, I am disgusted they have helped to wreck the country I care about.

That's a crime I simply can't forgive.

brexitbarbie · 22/05/2025 10:27

pointythings · 22/05/2025 09:40

@brexitbarbie what are you hoping to achieve by posting that pathetic sneer from The Spectator? Everyone knows where they stand.

And why do you want to be poorer and have fewer opportunities?

I was told on this thread that I "should read the opinions of those I disagree with because it might help my understanding".

Maybe you should do the same.

It seems to me that only the goose is getting the sauce here 🙂

brexitbarbie · 22/05/2025 10:43

@inkognithia "I have a question for you, Do you consider yourself a patriot?"

Well maybe we have different definitions of "being a patriot".

And it wasn't a simple binary choice.

To me being a patriot was taking back control from the bloated Brussels bureaucrats and being a sovereign nation again, unfettered by a slew of directives that we didn't vote for, but had to implement.

As Mark Twain said - "Loyalty to the country always and loyalty to the governnent when it deserves it."

brexitbarbie · 22/05/2025 10:47

countingthedays945 · 22/05/2025 10:05

I wish he could but unfortunately your non sensible vote has caused too much damage to undo at this point. What benefits has Brexit offered and delivered for you out of interest?

Better business opportunities in my industry for a start, but to detail them would be "outing".

HarrietBond · 22/05/2025 10:55

It's hard to know what to make of those opportunities with so little detail!

I think the UK 'lost' in 2016. People who have been pointing out what a bad idea Brexit is/was have been getting childish insults hurled at them for almost a decade now so it's nothing new, but the attitude that we should all now adopt some deluded nationalist dogma that all is for the best in this best of all possible worlds despite the evidence to the contrary is unhelpful.

BoredZelda · 22/05/2025 10:56

TheQuirkyMaker · 19/05/2025 11:27

Is is right that an unpopular govt can reverse the democratic wishes of the UK to have nothing to do with Europe?

This “unpopular government” won a massive majority in 2024. The “democratic wishes” for Brexit was almost a decade ago.

Labour aren't reversing Brexit, but to say they can’t do anything to improve our trading relationship with the EU is anti democratic shows a deep misunderstanding what democracy is.

inkognithia · 22/05/2025 11:00

HarrietBond · 22/05/2025 10:55

It's hard to know what to make of those opportunities with so little detail!

I think the UK 'lost' in 2016. People who have been pointing out what a bad idea Brexit is/was have been getting childish insults hurled at them for almost a decade now so it's nothing new, but the attitude that we should all now adopt some deluded nationalist dogma that all is for the best in this best of all possible worlds despite the evidence to the contrary is unhelpful.

Quite right. If @brexitbarbie does genuinely enjoy any benefits of Brexit (it's tricky to tell with somebody who makes a lot of noise but has little to offer in the way of verifiable facts), then those benefits are a drop in the ocean compared to the enormous harm that Brexit has caused to this country and, especially, to the poorest sections of this country.

inkognithia · 22/05/2025 11:27

brexitbarbie · 22/05/2025 10:43

@inkognithia "I have a question for you, Do you consider yourself a patriot?"

Well maybe we have different definitions of "being a patriot".

And it wasn't a simple binary choice.

To me being a patriot was taking back control from the bloated Brussels bureaucrats and being a sovereign nation again, unfettered by a slew of directives that we didn't vote for, but had to implement.

As Mark Twain said - "Loyalty to the country always and loyalty to the governnent when it deserves it."

Edited

And you'd be wrong. Completely, resounding, and demonstrably wrong.

Actually, you are right about one thing. You're absolutely right that we voted to leave. And we did leave. You got exactly what you asked for.

But here's what I think some people are missing about how democracy actually works. Democracy doesn't stop after one vote.

Think about it this way. Every few years, we have general elections. We vote in a government, and if we don't like what they've done, we vote them out next time. That's not "anti-democratic" - that's literally how democracy works.
Local elections happen regularly too. We don't say "well, you voted for these councillors four years ago, so you can never change your mind." That would be absurd.

The same principle applies here. We left the EU - that's done. But if the British people now look at the results and think "actually, this isn't working out how we hoped," then having another say is exactly what democracy looks like.
And let's be honest about what the polls are telling us. Survey after survey shows growing support for rejoining. That's not politicians pushing an agenda - that's the British people changing their minds based on what they've experienced.

Here's something worth remembering: Brexit was never going to give everyone what they wanted, because different people wanted completely different things.
Some people voted to leave because they wanted stricter immigration controls. Others wanted more global trade opportunities. Some wanted to "take back control" of our laws. Others were frustrated with EU bureaucracy.
The problem is, these goals often contradicted each other. You can't have completely open global trade while also having total control over who comes into your country. You can't have all the benefits of EU membership while also having none of the obligations.

So yes, we left. But did you get everything you were promised? Did immigration fall the way you were told it would? Are we doing amazing trade deals around the world? Is our sovereignty somehow more "sovereign" than it was before?

Actually, the sovereignty argument has always puzzled me a bit, if I'm honest. The UK government still makes UK laws. We always did, even when we were in the EU. Our democratically elected parliament then votes them through.
What EU membership actually did was let us pool our sovereignty with our closest neighbours and trading partners. Think about it like this: if you're trying to negotiate with much bigger countries like the US, China, or India, would you rather do it as one country of 67 million people, or as part of a bloc of 500 million?

Look at other successful regional partnerships around the world. Countries everywhere are forming closer ties with their neighbours because that's how you get things done in a globalised world. Whether it's ASEAN in Southeast Asia, or various trading partnerships across Africa and the Americas - successful countries work together with their neighbours.

We've essentially diminished our negotiating position on the world stage, then expressed surprise when other countries don't offer us preferential terms in trade negotiations.

Our economy has demonstrably taken a hit. That's not political rhetoric - that's what the data shows. When economic growth falters, everything else becomes considerably more challenging. There's reduced revenue for the NHS, for schools, for infrastructure maintenance, for all the public services that actually matter to families.

Higher taxation becomes inevitable because there's less economic activity to generate revenue from. Investment in infrastructure becomes more constrained because there's reduced capital circulation. The improvements that would genuinely enhance people's lives - better transport networks, more affordable housing, enhanced public services - all become significantly more difficult when your economy is underperforming relative to its potential.

Rejoining the single market and customs union wouldn't solve every problem overnight. But it would remove a lot of the friction that's currently making trade harder and more expensive. That means more opportunities for British businesses, more jobs, and ultimately more money available for the things we all care about.

So here's the truth of the matter @brexitbarbie and anyone who voted Leave in 2016: you won. We left. But democracy didn't end that day.

If sufficient numbers of people now believe that leaving hasn't delivered the outcomes we hoped for, then having that conversation represents exactly what a healthy democracy should do. It's not about invalidating your vote - it's about evaluating the consequences and asking whether this remains the path we want to pursue.

The question we need to confront honestly is this: what exactly have we achieved by leaving? We were promised greater sovereignty, yet we're a diminished force in international negotiations. We were promised prosperity through global trade deals, yet our economic performance has deteriorated. We were told we'd have more control over our borders, yet immigration levels haven't fallen as promised. At what point do we acknowledge that the promises made simply haven't materialised?

Democracy demands that we think critically about results, not cling to decisions regardless of their outcomes. If Brexit was supposed to make Britain stronger, more prosperous, and more in control of its destiny, then surely we should be able to point to concrete evidence of these improvements.

The absence of such evidence isn't a reason to double down - it's a reason to reconsider.

SarfLondonLad · 22/05/2025 11:46

TheQuirkyMaker · 19/05/2025 11:27

Is is right that an unpopular govt can reverse the democratic wishes of the UK to have nothing to do with Europe?

YES! YES! 1000 x YES.

If that pigthick dolt Cameron had had the guts to ignore the advisory referendum result and do it he'd still be PM!

SinnerBoy · 22/05/2025 12:30

brexitbarbie · Today 10:47

Better business opportunities in my industry for a start, but to detail them would be "outing".

Ah. So you're one of the tiny percentage of the population who's making a few more Quid. You have an "I'm all right, Jack!" attitude and couldn't give a hooping funt about everyone else getting a punishment beating.

brexitbarbie · 22/05/2025 12:57

inkognithia · 22/05/2025 11:27

And you'd be wrong. Completely, resounding, and demonstrably wrong.

Actually, you are right about one thing. You're absolutely right that we voted to leave. And we did leave. You got exactly what you asked for.

But here's what I think some people are missing about how democracy actually works. Democracy doesn't stop after one vote.

Think about it this way. Every few years, we have general elections. We vote in a government, and if we don't like what they've done, we vote them out next time. That's not "anti-democratic" - that's literally how democracy works.
Local elections happen regularly too. We don't say "well, you voted for these councillors four years ago, so you can never change your mind." That would be absurd.

The same principle applies here. We left the EU - that's done. But if the British people now look at the results and think "actually, this isn't working out how we hoped," then having another say is exactly what democracy looks like.
And let's be honest about what the polls are telling us. Survey after survey shows growing support for rejoining. That's not politicians pushing an agenda - that's the British people changing their minds based on what they've experienced.

Here's something worth remembering: Brexit was never going to give everyone what they wanted, because different people wanted completely different things.
Some people voted to leave because they wanted stricter immigration controls. Others wanted more global trade opportunities. Some wanted to "take back control" of our laws. Others were frustrated with EU bureaucracy.
The problem is, these goals often contradicted each other. You can't have completely open global trade while also having total control over who comes into your country. You can't have all the benefits of EU membership while also having none of the obligations.

So yes, we left. But did you get everything you were promised? Did immigration fall the way you were told it would? Are we doing amazing trade deals around the world? Is our sovereignty somehow more "sovereign" than it was before?

Actually, the sovereignty argument has always puzzled me a bit, if I'm honest. The UK government still makes UK laws. We always did, even when we were in the EU. Our democratically elected parliament then votes them through.
What EU membership actually did was let us pool our sovereignty with our closest neighbours and trading partners. Think about it like this: if you're trying to negotiate with much bigger countries like the US, China, or India, would you rather do it as one country of 67 million people, or as part of a bloc of 500 million?

Look at other successful regional partnerships around the world. Countries everywhere are forming closer ties with their neighbours because that's how you get things done in a globalised world. Whether it's ASEAN in Southeast Asia, or various trading partnerships across Africa and the Americas - successful countries work together with their neighbours.

We've essentially diminished our negotiating position on the world stage, then expressed surprise when other countries don't offer us preferential terms in trade negotiations.

Our economy has demonstrably taken a hit. That's not political rhetoric - that's what the data shows. When economic growth falters, everything else becomes considerably more challenging. There's reduced revenue for the NHS, for schools, for infrastructure maintenance, for all the public services that actually matter to families.

Higher taxation becomes inevitable because there's less economic activity to generate revenue from. Investment in infrastructure becomes more constrained because there's reduced capital circulation. The improvements that would genuinely enhance people's lives - better transport networks, more affordable housing, enhanced public services - all become significantly more difficult when your economy is underperforming relative to its potential.

Rejoining the single market and customs union wouldn't solve every problem overnight. But it would remove a lot of the friction that's currently making trade harder and more expensive. That means more opportunities for British businesses, more jobs, and ultimately more money available for the things we all care about.

So here's the truth of the matter @brexitbarbie and anyone who voted Leave in 2016: you won. We left. But democracy didn't end that day.

If sufficient numbers of people now believe that leaving hasn't delivered the outcomes we hoped for, then having that conversation represents exactly what a healthy democracy should do. It's not about invalidating your vote - it's about evaluating the consequences and asking whether this remains the path we want to pursue.

The question we need to confront honestly is this: what exactly have we achieved by leaving? We were promised greater sovereignty, yet we're a diminished force in international negotiations. We were promised prosperity through global trade deals, yet our economic performance has deteriorated. We were told we'd have more control over our borders, yet immigration levels haven't fallen as promised. At what point do we acknowledge that the promises made simply haven't materialised?

Democracy demands that we think critically about results, not cling to decisions regardless of their outcomes. If Brexit was supposed to make Britain stronger, more prosperous, and more in control of its destiny, then surely we should be able to point to concrete evidence of these improvements.

The absence of such evidence isn't a reason to double down - it's a reason to reconsider.

So I'm wrong, again 😆

This sounds like the mood from Remoaners Remainers after the Brexit vote all over again.

It was boring then and it's boring now.

Yawn