To be scared people aren't taking far-right extremists seriously?

[AnxiousApocalypse]

There is so much anti-immigrant sentiment in the UK and the West in general. There are a lot of people that believe if you are a person of colour that has grown up in the UK but have immigrant parents, then you are not British enough- even if you have spent your whole life here and integrated into British society. On Wednesday, three far-right extremists were convicted in Sheffield Crown Court of planning a terrorist attack but there was hardly any coverage. At my workplace, people talk about immigrants coming over on scam care worker visas schemes, bringing their dependants and taking up resources such as school places and NHS appointments when those are already lacking for those born in Britain. I thought that scrapping overseas recruitment for care workers and heightening the qualifications threshold for skilled worker visas by the government was quite severe, but comments on the Daily Mail and Telegraph articles show that this isn't enough for most people. What about all the universities having to make cuts due to losing significant income from the new restrictions on international student visas? Will most people not be happy until the UK has no non-white people at all?

These questions - I’m not sure how you missed them - they’re on this page and even Jhound attempted to answer. (see how this works? I didn’t even tell you to scroll back a few posts, let alone many pages):

Are you claiming therefore that white British people either don’t exist or our existence is somehow ‘far right’? If there are no people regarded as indigenous (the exact definition of this is a whole other conversation) British then what are we?
Do you have the same issue with people who are proud to be black Africans? Or Nigerians that have a national identity that requires a Nigerian to be black and have originated from Nigeria?
I think it is fine when people describe themselves as British Asians or similar as that signals an adoption of what it generally regarded to be British but acknowledges their actual heritage. What words like your do is erase the concept of British heritage. You wouldn’t do that do any other nationality, why us?
I wouldn’t move to India and expect all Indians to refer to me as Indian and pretend that India heritage and culture has now expanded to include me.

Can you point to anywhere I said I wanted an ‘unsullied lineage with no foreign blood’?

You sound like you are mocking Britons. Is it ok to mock people for their racial heritage now?

I thought you were against that - who’s next on your list?

Nigerians are citizens from Nigeria or people with ancestry from Nigeria. Nigeria isn't an ethnostate and has lots of different ethnicities.

That's all you need to be someone from Nigeria - your skin colour doesn't somehow make you purer.

Are you claiming therefore that white British people either don’t exist or our existence is somehow ‘far right’?

A skin colour can't be far right as that's a political ideology. White British people can and do exist.

there are no people regarded as indigenous (the exact definition of this is a whole other conversation) British then what are we?

Indigenous Britons are ancient Celts. Therefore your bloodline goes back to the ancient Celts and is unsullied. British people are citizens of Britain. We were colonised by the Romans and people from all over the world came here, we were invaded by Vikings. As an Empire we had people from the colonies here. That's our history.

Now answer my question. Why is it so important to you to be 'indigenous', not British but 'indigenous'? Which appears to mean white with an unsullied bloodline.

@TempestTost
"As far as racial culture war stuff, that has absolutely been the progressive left. The worst and most pervasive racism I've seen in the last 10 years has been from race essentialists on the left, It's really disturbing."

Do you want to give us an example of what you refer to as the 'racial culture war stuff'?

Your comment about migration depressing the wages of the lowest paid in the UK, this is a line that's constantly used by those of you on the far right in your efforts to persuade working class people that a party like Reform - one that supports mass deregulation of industry and labour, and the shrinking of the state, is actually on their side. This is what the migration observatory has to say about it:

"Research shows that the impacts of migration on wages and employment prospects for UK-born workers are small. Several studies have examined whether immigration leads to higher unemployment or lower wages among existing workers, and most have found either small or no effects."

You're arguing that working class people should side with the interests - the neoliberal right - who are ideologically opposed to every change over the past century that's been beneficial to working people: the growth of the state apparatus that's given them healthcare and free education; the protection of workers' rights; the regulation of industry that's cut deaths and illness from industrial diseases; the creation of social housing.

Reform are a far right, racist neoliberal party masquerading as 'the voice of the people'. They're the UK equivalent to MAGA.

On a related note - in my area I saw a car recently with an SNP sticker. And I realise how weird it is the Scottish National Party seems to be able to champion Scottish rights without racism but the BNP, EDL and Britain First all seem unable to do so.

A lot of people here have never lived anywhere else, and it shows.

It's a lot harder to get anything most other places. There's more 'foreigner tax' just from not being from there, there's insane amounts of hoops you have to jump through to get your kids into a school, to get any kind of healthcare (often you can't without paying through the nose). The culture in the UK is rules following, and it shows the moment you try and achieve something in another country and discover that who you know is often as important as having all the right pieces of paper.

That's all you need to be someone from Nigeria - your skin colour doesn't somehow make you purer.

I didn’t say it did, but you still haven’t answered my actual question. Do you object to other countries having their own standards and definitions of what it means to be Nigerian for example (there are lots of people who say they are proud Nigerians) even if that excludes people based on their race? Do you think Nigerians are allowed to say that a white person cannot be regarded as Nigerian for example? Do you think it’s ok for a person to move to Spain and claim to be Spanish?

There's a lot of talk about being 'indigenous' or white. It's all far right ideology. The other day someone posted a far right meme about invasion and eugenics - on a parenting forum. That's how ubiquitous it's getting.

Your words. You brought in the word ‘indigenous’ - I didn’t. Your post, whether it was intentional or not, implied that you think the concept of ‘indigenous or white’ is somehow ‘far right’.

I’m glad you admit that white British people exist though and our existence is just a fact and not political. I still don’t understand what you think is ‘far right’ about being indigenous or white though?

In direct answer to your question, although I haven’t claimed to be ‘indigenous’, I probably am quite indigenous, having strong Celtic family lines that have been traced back 100s of years and some very interesting people and stories in that family. I am proud of that and I’m sad for anyone not proud of who they are and where they are from which shapes the person they are today.

I notice that you can’t address my actual point, you just make up stuff I haven’t said and argue with that.

Or do you just not recognise racism when it’s directed at the English?

Did you hear Humza Yusufs vicious diatribe about how many ‘white’ people were in positions of power in Scotland (a predominantly white country) and seemingly forgetting that he was in one of the most senior positions of power in Scotland.

@BundleBoogie

I didn’t say it did

Or Nigerians that have a national identity that requires a Nigerian to be black and have originated from Nigeria?

Yes you did.

Do you object to other countries having their own standards and definitions of what it means to be Nigerian for example (there are lots of people who say they are proud Nigerians) even if that excludes people based on their race?

Why would it exclude people based on their race? I did answer your question, I said having ancestry or citizenship makes you a Nigerian.

You seem very concerned with the colour of people's skin.

Your words. You brought in the word ‘indigenous’ - I didn’t. Your post, whether it was intentional or not, implied that you think the concept of ‘indigenous or white’ is somehow ‘far right’.

I do think that the way people are using indigenous is far right. It seems to refer to skin colour. You seem to be saying that authentic British people are white. You seem to have a two tier version of what it means to be British 'indigenous' or white and then people of colour.

In direct answer to your question, although I haven’t claimed to be ‘indigenous’, I probably am quite indigenous, having strong Celtic family lines that have been traced back 100s of years and some very interesting people and stories in that family. I am proud of that and I’m sad for anyone not proud of who they are and where they are from which shapes the person they are today.

The Ancient Celts were thousands of years ago I'm afraid. Your unsullied bloodline must go back thousands of years to be 'indigenous'.

You seem to be proud of being white, rather than British. I'm also proud of my ancestry, not so of my skin colour.

I notice that you can’t address my actual point, you just make up stuff I haven’t said and argue with that.

I did address your points but you didn't like the answers so you ignored them. I also quoted you directly so couldn't have been making things up.

What's more far right than discussing skin colour and how proud we are of it?

Your last sentence is nonsense! Infact, you've gone so far left you've ended up in a 360 degrees tailspin. Do you not agree that you should be able to confidently assert that you are Black British and proud?!

@JacquesHarlow , thank you so much for your wonderfully measured and sensible response to what I consider a quite hysterical question.

You don't understand what I'm talking about which is understandable as you've taken what I've said out of context. My argument is that there's more to being British than being white.

If you want to believe that the SNP is remotely the equivalent of the BNP, EDL or Britain First knock yourself out.

But to be clear - this is your “vicious diatribe”

www.reuters.com/article/fact-check/scotland-health-ministers-speech-about-racial-injustice-and-lack-of-diversity-i-idUSL1N3531Q5/

The point in my side note is very relevant as it’s a direct response to what you wrote (which I quoted.)

And I have no idea what you mean by “people from other countries”.

We are all Britons discussing British views on identity.

@BundleBoogie

"I’m glad you admit that white British people exist though and our existence is just a fact and not political. I still don’t understand what you think is ‘far right’ about being indigenous or white though?"

How is it possible to have a sensible discussion with someone who makes comments like this? Who is being attacked as 'far right' on the strength of their ethnicity alone?

Anti immigration does not mean racism. Stop aligning the two.

It’s the Left that are causing all the problems not the far right!

Sure.

@JacquesHarlow

"You'll find "non white" people like me are also concerned about mass arrivals of young men, from particular communities and countries, time and time again arriving without families or any context, and slipping away into society without any identification, any screening, any support for integration. Where I live, this concerns people. Not their colour, but the culture issues."

The 'mass arrivals' you refer to are estimated to made up 6% of the immigration total last year.

When you refer to 'particular communities they come from' - not sure what you're inferring, can you clarify?

If you're saying that a high percentage of people arriving by boat are not presenting to immigration authorities and are in fact just living illegally in the UK, not claiming asylum, then how can you know about what communities they come from? Can you link to the research you've looked at that quantifies the number of migrants that are arriving in the UK in an irregular fashion and not presenting to immigration authorities and claiming asylum?

I live in an area where there are large numbers of new immigrants and asylum seekers. There are 4 mosques, a large hotel housing migrants and a migrant hostel within walking distance of my home. It's a very poor area where almost all of the businesses on the high street are immigrant run. I'm in all the local community groups on facebook and know lots of people in the area - I've lived here for 24 years. I don't hear people expressing worry about 'cultural issues' connected with immigration - they're all about the impact of severe poverty, inadequate council services, and poor housing in the area.

BTW - the complaints about the fact that most asylum seekers are young men - this is constantly repeated on EDL and Reform social media, usually alongside comments referring to them a 'young men of fighting age', it might be worth reading some information about why this demographic are disproportionately represented among asylum seekers and migrants all around the world, information that doesn't come directly from a source whose primary aim is stirring up fear, resentment and mistrust of migrants.

www.bestforbritain.org/myths_male_asylum_seekers_international_mens_day

I was going to ignore this but this really bothers me @nomas

I am not an immigrant.

I am the daughter of one. One of my parents was an immigrant.

So for you to call me an "immigrant" just because I identified myself as a 'person of colour" (OP's phrase) earlier in the thread is just so depressing.

Anyways let me try and get past that -

Being categorised as an "immigrant" still does not mean that I should somehow automatically put the needs of ANY immigrant no matter who they are, their values, and how they wish to interact with us in the UK above every other attribute about myself.

I would rank other attributes about myself as MORE important than being ethnically diverse and therefore identifiable as the 'daughter of an immigrant'.

These characteristics include:

• being a woman (and therefore wanting to remain safe in a culture which accepts women as equal, allowed to traverse roads without being shamed or shouted at etc)
• being British and having been raised in a culture and legal framework which is understandable and more importantly foundational to life here - and which isn't superseded or circumvented by another, religious legal framework

I do not blame any one culture for anything. I know how my father was very occasionally treated decades ago. It is why I respect everyone who comes here and wants to make a better life, who wants to celebrate Britain and be part of our culture.

However I find it staggering that some people are wilfully failing to see that at some point we have to talk about those other characteristics, and whether women are being considered here.

As a woman I would like to be able to walk to the Tube without constant comments, and shouts of phrases in a language I happen to understand because of my studies, but which do not make me feel comfortable. I am not a 'whore' if I wear a knee length pencil skirt to work.

I want my DDs to feel comfortable that they will not be targeted as 'loose' just for being British young women, in the way that this took place systemically in a Yorkshire town.

Do I have the right to want these things?

Would add, 70% of immigrants who came on the Windrush were men. Compared to 71% of asylum seekers in 2023.

I'm surprised to hear that you've only received harassment from foreign men. I started being harassed when I hit puberty, I've been assaulted a few times and was not assaulted by foreign men.

The cat calling and shouts from vans are not from foreign men. I think I've had one comment from a foreign man in my lifetime and live in a very diverse area.

I'm sorry to hear of your experience.

@JacquesHarlow

Do you think if we have fewer Asian/African immigrants living in the UK the country will become safe for women?

Is that why you want to see the drawbridge pulled up for new generations of migrants?

What would you have said to the people who used EXACTLY the same arguments against previous waves of immigrants in the 1950's/1960's and 1970's?

Part of the problem is that people who do take far right extremism seriously tend to be condescended, patronised and gaslit into the shadows.

Believe you me, some of us do take it seriously.

@JacquesHarlow

As a 59 year old woman who has lived in UK, USA, Sri Lanka, India, Thailand & Kenya I can tell you that sexual harassment, cat calling and sexual assault is ubiquitous and universal. 1 in 6 women in the UK will experience sexual assault in her lifetime, the vast majority by someone within their social circle. This statistic has remained steady for decades.

Using the 'brown men are dangerous to women' in the context of debate around immigration is the oldest far right trope in the book.