to feel annoyed about the phone situation?

[TheInternetNeverForgets]

My eldest daughter is 11.

She is without phone. She is literally the only girl in her class without one (fairly small school). She does have a smartwatch which she can use to message her close pals (although it doesn't use WhatsApp, just texts, so she’s not part of class WhatsApp or Snapchat etc) and that I can use to contact her when she’s out and about. She has no need for a phone. She hasn’t really asked for one up until now.

I really don’t agree with the use of smart phones for kids of that age. I don’t believe they are old/responsible enough to handle the issues that being constantly accessible and visible to their school friends can bring. There is no let up from any bullying or friendship issues. The scope for nasty behaviour is massive. There are so, so many reasons I am against this. I’m trying to protect her from it I guess.

Anyway. It’s becoming increasingly obvious that she’s being left out due to lack of phone. There’s a lot of in jokes she doesnt get. A lot of chat she misses out on. Class meet ups (although her friends mum is quite good at texting me to ensure she’s included, but not all the time). The pressure to cave and let her have a phone is increasing. I don’t want her to be a pariah. I want her to fit in with her peers.

So what choice do I have? And yet, I don’t believe that I am wrong in my views about phones for kids.

Secondary school aged kids need a smartphone even if using it in school is prohibited. You can use parental controls but they will need it for secondary. Not sure what you mean re WhatsApp as I do not think kids class WhatsApp should be a thing at primary level, parents praps but not kids.

Also WhatsApp toxicity high in early secondary years

Yeah it shouldn’t be. But it be.

You don’t have to get DD a smart phone at primary school or til she’s 13 as you said, that’s a valid parenting choice.

Agree. My kid is 6 now and when I asked when he gets a phone, he says 16. At the school phones aren’t allowed. Also the school is fairly far that will probably have to pick up/ drop off myself for a long time so don’t have to worry about kid walking home etc.
the only instance I’d agree to a phone for a child under 16 is if they manage a condition through it such as diabetes etc.

There are some seriously defensive people on here telling OP she should give her DD a smart phone to keep with in "in crowd"

There is a whole movement sweeping smartphones away from children because of the damage they cause. It's not "wooden sustainable toys" or "not allowed TV" it's protecting them from harm.

Smartphones are addictive. Little brains are still developing. Who gives a flying f if she can't keep track of the class whatsapp?!

OP I promise you in 10 years you will be so glad you made this brave and strong choice for your DD. Others will also feel brave enough to follow suit.

We held out until year 7 and then gave her a phone but banned apps. Dd1s friendship group all had phones and communicated via Snapchat. Dd was entirely cut off from that. By year 8 she would come to us in tears saying how left out she was because of our rule. Genuinely what would the no phone parents do in that scenarios?

Covid hit then and we gave in and she was right that is how they communicate. Dd1 is careful doesn’t post much publicly but her group chat with her mates is important and it is how they interact whether we like it or not.

It's all very well saying good parents should get their DC smartphones but restrict apps etc, but I don't have anything remotely close to the free time, brain or energy to research and learn the tech skills and even if I did my DC would know how to get round any controls. I've spent ages looking into it over the last 2 years and can't make head or tail of any of it.

So because you can't be bothered to learn how to supervise your child on a phone you think no child should have one?

My DC know:
their phone is actually borrowed from me;
my name is on the contract and until theirs is I am allowed to to check their phones whenever I want;
their phones will be confiscated if I discover they've tried to get around restrictions;
their phones will be confiscated if I discover they've sent and then deleted messages;
their phones will be confiscated if they send anything unacceptable.
At the end of the day, the phone is in my name and I am responsible and I'm paying for it.

DC2 saw porn at school in Yr5 - Yr 6 leavers prank, and from some Yr9 kids who decided to lean over the garden fence and show DC8, neighbours kids 6&4 "something on their phone".

You simply can't control what they see on other people's devices.

I didn’t know that not getting an 11 year old a smartphone was such an extreme position. I’ve got a P6 boy about to turn 11 and he doesn’t have a phone. I don’t know exactly how many kids in his class have one but he says he doesn’t want one. I think he’s actually quite happy not to be part whatever goes on with their chats, although he seems to get on fine with everyone at school and has some nice friends. Might be a boy thing.

I might have caved for this birthday and got him a really locked down smartphone if he had really wanted one. He has a (very restricted) iPad and can iMessage family on that. I do want him to have a phone for any time he’s out and about without me (he has a medical condition) so will probably take a look at the old school Nokias imminently.

Anyway to OP just to let you know your P6 is not the only one who doesn’t have one.

Nothing. I’d do nothing. Because it’s wrong.

No need to pretend I said something I didn't.

You simply can't control what they see on other people's devices

If fewer parents give in, fewer kids will have phones and chances of them seeing something they shouldn’t reduces.

It makes no sense, this argument. So just because they might be exposed to harm anyway you should make it easier for that to happen??

In my area 11 is when most kids get a phone

Conditions were: my fingerprint is on the phone and i know the password - no phone in the bedroom at night and needs to ask for apps.
I am lucky that her whatsapp chats are mild, she didn't went for the whole class ones and when she turned 13 she actually did NOT wat snapchat as it's too complicated, she says. fortunately her friends who do have it when it's something regarding her they use whatsapp

my other who is younger, has google chat since 9yo which she uses in the family/homework laptop. she can't use it out and about and we also check the messages and groups. this way she is learning to use chats until she has her own phone.
for her there was one day when i had to post a message on the group saying "this is X's mum, she is getting distressed and won't use the chat for 2/3 days" and it was just some bickering that got out of hand and in the end all worked out well.

I will just saw that i hope you all that don't have phones have kids who talk to you. with selective mutism on some situations i find the phone valuable to communicate with gifs, pictures, humour and messages and I learn and communicate a lot more with my kid

We held out till secondary with both our DC, and then it was for safety reasons ie so they were able to cotact us if there was a problem with transport etc. We explained why we waited, and made it clear how phone was to be used. We trust them to.understand what is and isn't appropriate, check how they ate using it from time to time, and so far have had no problems.

My younger one (DS14).told me last week that he was glad we had made him wait and that he couldn't believe that some of his friends had their own phones years before which they used to watch inappropriate stuff.

Hold the line, OP!

This is hard as you are really in the right IMO to try and hold off. Being left out is massive though for young people. Similar situation - my son when he was 14 had an Xbox and his friends had a PS5. He never seemed bothered but he ended up being left out where they all bonded over playing online together. It’s a bit extreme but he become alienated and ignored. I want to go back in time and get him the same computer they had as he was so affected by being left out. You could get it for her and inforce strict rules & check her phone all the time. It’s so hard to navigate this. I think some laws need to change.

I just read this brilliant post about a school that banned phones for a year, written by a PE teacher in the USA.

Basically phones should be banned in school.

fittoteach.substack.com/p/my-school-banned-phones-for-the-year

Oh phones should definitely be banned in school in terms of a school rule of "switched off, in your bag, gets confiscated if seen out of your bag." That's not the same as a law banning them for U16s outside school which is definitely over the top.
Phones have no place in school other than if a teacher wants to demonstrate something in a lesson on internet safety or show how kids can access their homework on their phones. However, parents should be able to make their own choices for the time their child is not in school. Yes some parents will make 'bad' choices re phone and social media use which have negative consequences, but the way round that is education of both kids and parents not a total ban.

Is it really the case that some secondary schools allow phones in school?!

DC's school has a rule that if a phone is seen or heard, it's confiscated, so children keep them turned off in their bags.

I don't understand why any school would allow children to use their phones in school, or why a simple, obviously necessary rule banning them is headline news.

This is how it was in my kids’ schools as well, but perhaps it isn’t standard procedure in all schools?

You feel sorry for an 11 year old because she isn’t allowed a device that gives her access to the internet 24/7? Get a grip.

It’s ridiculous and lazy to tell other people to “be a parent!!!” when they post threads like this.

YANBU OP and I agree to read the anxious generation and look into smartphone free childhood. As well as the risks from dodgy content and bullying, kids who have smartphones are also more likely to get involved in RTAs if they are distracted by phones whilst crossing the road, or even be mugged for a smartphone.

We have become a completely paranoid society, obsessed with “keeping kids safe” by not allowing them to play out or go to the shop by themselves without being tracked but the risk to them from strangers in the neighbourhood is tiny.

We overprotect kids in the physical world and underprotect them in the virtual world.

They don’t need to have the phone in their hand 24/7 do they? It should be in their school bag during the school day, downstairs on charge overnight, no phones at the dinner table etc
Controls can be put on what they can access so they don’t need to have unfettered access to the internet. There’s no need to be so hysterical.
There are many benefits to having a phone (as long as this is managed appropriately by the adult).
Phones give kids access to educational apps and online tools, they mean kids are connected to family and friends. They help them build social networks. They help them not to be left out of things.
Secondary school children need to learn how to handle the complex responsibilities that owning a phone brings and I think it’s important to let them do so.

You are brilliant. It's nonsense that we should accept it's 2025 and give our children harmful tech. This must be really tough and I'm sad that kids of this age should have to put up with it. I am hoping parents of younger kids are coming together to stop it. But appreciate that doesn't help you much right now. Just know you are brilliant and that it's clear you're more caring and thoughtful than the parents of her peers. She'll hopefully realise that one day.

All those things you list can be done without a smartphone, though.
It's the Whatsapp, Snapchat, etc. that are causing problems and that could be prevented if children weren't given access to them.

11 being the age they start secondary, I would feel a bit sorry for kids who don't have them. They're left behind. Like it or not, but it's what happens.

I prefer giving my child a phone in the final years of primary, so the excitement of a new phone is gone and it's just a tool.

Without their phone and their whatsapp groups, kids simply don't get invited - it's not formal invitations, it's the modern version of shouting underneath your window to ask if you are coming out to go with them.

Even messaging ME to ask if it's ok to stay with friends after school, instead of missing out on all the gatherings because they have to go home.

If people don't want to give a phone, or even a smartphone to their child, I don't really care. I am happy with my choices. They don't spend 24h a day on the internet 🙄, but it makes all our lives so much easier.

You don't HAVE to do anything. You don't have to let her have a phone until she's 18 if you don't choose to. You are the parent. It's a valuable lesson to teach kids - that they don't have to follow the herd without thinking. When I was at school (90s), there were a few "weird" kids who didn't have TVs. They seem to have grown up more imaginative, creative, self-reliant, hard-working, free-thinking, able to resist peer pressure and successful than the rest of us.

How can you expect her to resist this sort of thing, if you can't? She's 11 and doesn't have your ability to understand how these things damage the mind, the body and the soul. Giving an 11yo a smartphone is like allowing them to eat what they want for every meal. They can't self-regulate on this stuff at all.