DH won't let daughter go on school trip to mosque

[RealUmberAnt]

I'm shocked and appalled!! He (M41)says he doesn't want her (DD12) learning about people who marry there daughters off at 9 years old and all their women are oppressed and forced to cover up and do as their told!

I feel like he's taring all Muslims with the same brush and it's good to learn about other religions and see other places of worship!

I'm so mad!! I honestly don't think I can stay with someone who has these opinions!!

Can it truly be a choice while women in some countries are killed for not covering their hair? How is it a choice for some but not the others?

Islam is a religion so I’m not sure how his views make him racist. There are no racial criteria for being a Muslim.

Why do you think your earlier post on this thread was deleted @catsatonmat?

I have no idea what you have or have not experienced, but I'm pretty certain that there will be lots of Muslim people that you have never encountered, so your own experience of Islam - whatever that may or may not entail - is just that, your own experience.

That bit didn't escape me either.

It absolutely can be a choice for some.

I have a Muslim friend who didn't cover when I first met her. A few years ago, she started wearing the hijab. Her Muslim husband begged her to stop wearing it because he thought it would make her a target for abuse. She refused, because she had reached her own decision on the matter and he had to suck it up.

My dd has a friend who is Muslim and doesn't cover her head. She has three sisters. Two choose to cover, the other two don't. No pressure from the parents either way, it is their free choice.

Yes, women are killed in some countries for not covering their heads. That's horrific, but the belief that you can police what women wear is likely to be cultural and political as much as it is religious. As with anything, people can choose to interpret religious texts in various different ways.

Misogyny exists in all cultures, sadly, even if it manifests itself in different ways. There are undoubtedly problems in some Islamic communities, but I don't think it's fair or accurate to portray all Muslim women as downtrodden and oppressed. That definitely doesn't apply to some of the women I know!

How do you feel about criticism of aspects of Islam by former Muslims who often risk their lives to speak out?

You are calling OPs DH lots of names but it feels a bit unfocused. As a starting point do you think that criticism of the practice of stoning ‘adulterous’ (raped) women to death in Iran, for example, as specifically authorised in the Koran is Islamophobic?

This research paper from the Gettysburg Institute examines the current practice of stoning to death as a torture and punishment alongside the clear discrimination against women within the rules of the practice.

Link in post below.

https://cupola.gettysburg.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?params=/context/islamandwomen/article/1005/&path_info=Haugh__Megan__Stoning_in_Iran__A_Sexist_and_Overlooked_Practice.pdf

That’s nice that your friends feel that they have a choice but could their thinking have been influenced at a deep level by being brought up to believe that ‘good’ Muslim women cover their hair? You are obviously aware of the extreme power of social conditioning, just look at the strong reactions to perceived racism and Islamophobia.

Your friends don’t have a choice to travel to Iran and not cover their hair. Men do.

Is the difference between your friends and the women in Iran or other countries where hair coverings are compulsory just a quirk of location? Are countries that force women to cover their hair unIslamic or extremely Islamic?

I think former Muslims have every right to talk about their own experiences of Islam. I don't think their experiences will necessarily be universal, though, any more than Christians will have a universal experience of Christianity.

And no, of course I don't think it is Islamophobic to say that stoning a woman to death is wrong. It is utterly barbaric, but most Muslims I know would agree with that. Yes, there is reference to that in the Koran, but not everyone interprets everything literally. Just as not all Christians interpret the Bible literally either... which is good, because that also contains some pretty questionable stuff.

That’s a relief, so as far as you’re concerned some criticism of Islam is allowed.

Stoning to death of women and homosexuals in the name of Islam isn’t quite as niche as one might hope. I’m glad you think that most UK based Muslims would condemn it though.

There are some UK based Muslims that are quite vocal on social media about their more extreme Islamic views though. Is it possible that UK laws and British culture help keep the extreme views from taking over? I’d be interested to know what steps the moderate Muslims take to stop the extremist hate preachers that sometimes preach in mosques in this country.

blogs.loc.gov/law/2021/04/falqs-execution-by-stoning-and-privacy-laws-related-to-sexual-crimes-in-iran-and-afghanistan/

Well, I can't speak for them, so I can only say what I know.

It's possible that my friend may have been influenced by societal/religious expectations about how good Muslim women should dress. However, she grew up in a majority Muslim community where most Muslim women didn't cover their heads, so I'm not really sure how much of a factor that was.

If you asked her directly, she would probably tell you that she was fed up of having bad hair days! In her more serious moments, she might tell you that it was part of her way of exploring her own spirituality. It has also crossed my mind that, knowing her personality and her past experiences, there could be an element of saying "fuck you" to the islamopbes and asserting her right to express her faith, but she hasn't ever articulated this explicitly, so that is my speculation rather than her truth.

As for Iran, fuck knows what's going on there. It used to be relatively liberal but, like Afghanistan, it has been taken over by a bunch of misogynist men who choose to promote a particular version of Islam in order to support their brand of state control. Is that really about religion and spirituality or is it more about politics, and where do you draw the line between the two. Same as the Conservative alt-right Christians in the US who are desperate to exert control over women's bodies. Is that religion? Politics? Or just misogyny? Either way, the current Iranian/Afghan brand of Islam isn't the only one, and a lot of Muslims will experience their faith very differently from women in those countries.

It's attitudes like your DH's that make cultural trips like this even more important imo.
It's good to learn about other cultures, other ways of lives, other religions etc.
More knowledge and seeing we're all just people hopefully leads to less ignorance and hatred.

I'd allow my DDs, but I'd use it to point out the seperate worshiping areas for men and women. It's interesting that they don't have the trans issues every other organisation has. How unfortunately, mothers don't get to attend their son's etc funeral. I wouldn't not discuss the past issues in the Catholic/Christian Church, if they were visiting the Vatican City and recently there's been Mosques in the news re refusing services to women and about content of what has been preached. So he's missed out on a teaching opportunity. The main issue, according to you, must be men, not religion, so I suppose that's the difficult part for him. Look at the countries dominated by different religions and you could discuss which are most dangerous for women and girls (without legal redress) and which have less rights and what they have in common. Should we just teach the fluffy side of anything? Absolutely not.

Those people are not Christian.

I am an atheist. I'm more than happy for all religions to be criticised. I myself find plenty to criticise in most of them.

What I don't like seeing is racism dressed up as islamophobia. And generalisations based on limited knowledge and experience.

It's possible that UK laws and culture might help to prevent extremism from taking hold. That isn't really for me to say, but I think that most of the Muslims I know would resist the extremes in any case because that isn't what they believe and it isn't how they want to live. Naturally, I suppose, there must be a spectrum of views on that.

Years ago, I spent a while living in a majority Islamic country that was very moderate at the time, and pretty relaxed about stuff. I don't know what it is like now as it is years since I've been back, but I certainly don't think it is inevitable that a Muslim society would choose a hardline approach in the absence of external influences. I believe that there has been a growing trend towards more hardline approaches in recent decades... that's a trend that I don't welcome personally, but I see it as being political as much as it is religious.

I wasn’t “telling” you anything. I was asking you.

It's not the only forum online. Perhaps try one more fitting to your beliefs.

No, the majority of society aren't bigots.

It's like a toddler holding out a potty and proudly saying, "Look what I did mummy."

If that prick gets in, you won't be celebrating for long baby.