Dad using individual ladies loo to change baby – what’s the etiquette?

[horchatatresleches]

We were at a small cafe we hadn’t visited before – just me, DH, and our baby DS. When DS needed changing, DH went to check the facilities but came back quickly saying the baby change was in the ladies so I changed him but it got me wondering about what is the etiquette.

The setup was one of those where the mens and women loos are both single-occupancy, self-contained rooms that open off the same hallway – not communal spaces with stalls. So it’s not like he’d be walking into a room with other women inside and making anyone uncomfortable. I’ve been to similar cafes where both loos are labelled gender-neutral, which seems simpler. Personally, I wouldn’t bat an eye if I saw a dad coming out of that kind of loo with a baby, but DH felt uncomfortable using the ladies even though there was no one else around. He wasn’t sure what he’d have done if I hadn’t been there to help.

Is there an etiquette about dads using the ladies in this kind of setup if that’s where the baby change is?
YANBU - he’s fine to use the baby change
YABU - he shouldn’t go in the ladies there

I apologise. I have not phrased my argument very clearly. I am referring to young children.1-2-3-4-5 years old. When they need to be supervised on the toilet.

Maybe your dh needs to find a unisex toilet or a men’s with cubicle instead of using the ladies in these circumstances. I’ve never seen a man with a small child in the ladies to be honest. It’s a bit entitled to think this way.

With the set up @horchatatresleches describes then the obvious solution would be for the cafe to designate one of the rooms as the baby change room with clear signage Mens Toilet/ Baby Change, or Womens Toilet/ Baby Change, or Toilet/Baby change, it doesn’t really matter which as long as the room is clean, big enough for a buggy and has a changing shelf. I think it would be unreasonable for both areas to be equipped for a baby change room in a small cafe but making it clear would only involve a sign on the door.

If they go down the Toilet/Baby change then they would of course have to put a sanitary bin as well as a nappy bin in both rooms

This would be ideal. It depends on the establishment where we’re in. And you know, normally I’d just take them to the ladies. But sometimes I’m knackered…

That’s ridiculous sorry. Children who need assistance should go to changing room/toilet of the sex of the parent who is bringing them and that’s just it.

I just googled this all, it seems this debate has been happening across the country.

You don't seem to be getting the bit that other children will be present in the communal area where men are not expected to be, potentially without carers. By "protecting" your child, you are making others more vulnerable.

Especially wierd if you are just outside. More defensible if he was put with your child alone.

Family friendly venues should have family toilets, save a lot if angst.

The introduction and design of wheelchair spaces feel like a minor change to most people yet it created a massive change in the social contract which we have when thinking about toilet spaces.

If there is a third space provided with wheelchair access and transfer bars most people would not use the empty third mixed sex space but rather will Q outside the door which matches their sex. We recognise that able bodies dont need the extra space nor the transfer equipment.

Most adults have babies yet babies and by default women as their "minder" were and to a point still are excluded from public space design. Toilets for both sex (once women got public provision) were the able design. When the law changed provision design for an accessable unit merged the availability of a foldup pushchair with the wheelchair resulting in 2 unit provision of an able mens and everybody else. The foldup also prompted a design change of adding a baby change unit as the size of the pram usually limited travel to areas local to the babys home.

Taking a wheelchair space provision and opening it to able bodies who have no need for the space or transfer equipment reduces the awareness of why the space is important.

By taking single sex provision from women to accommodate mens needs one downgrades importance of why the social change is needed. We should not be still designing sexism into social public spaces where mum gets handed the baby for a nappy change while dad stays put because even if he wanted to his toilet space has no provision for babies.

I wasn’t being childish by asking if this conversation is beyond you, I was being facetious. I was actually thinking you were just being an arse about it because you couldn’t back up your assertion, so went with a faux naïveté about where a man with a baby would go to change the baby. But maybe I was wrong. Was that really beyond you? Do you really think that a single occupancy toilet room that is a unisex disable loo, and a women’s loo, somehow can’t be a unisex baby change facility but is restricted to female carers only, leaving men out in the cold? Because if so, that’s just really poor on your part.

The social context at the design stage for the cafe seems most likely to have been “Where can we fit the baby change? Oh, only in the bigger loo. Best make that the women’s then as they are going to need it more.” Which, whilst certainly driven by the context of babies being women’s work, is also grounded in the reality of the society it serves (where far more women than men will be changing a baby in a cafe). If they had instead stuck the men’s label on the bigger loo with the baby change, that would have made more women’s lives harder, in general, and been more sexist. But a different solution would be less sexist.

In the context of the petrol station - I don’t discount the possibility that it could well be sexist provision. I was just pointing out that wasn’t necessarily the case. If it fairly meets demand and men, women and babies all get provision without significantly longer waits than each other, then it isn’t. The baby change isn’t in a single sex space in this case. It’s in a multi-use, single occupancy space.

No I get that bit. Like I said, there are arguments for annd against.

Nope, sorry - female space, not for blokes.

I sympathise with the dilemma, but this is not my problem.

Well said!

Why is it well said when it is a single occupancy space. There is no common sense in that statement if you read the ops description of the toilet. It’s just silliness

Right so a dad out with a baby has nowhere to change the baby? Great. Not your problem maybe but it’s a problem for the baby who now might have to wait to have their nappy changed. It’s not even a female space - it’s a fucking individual toilet and the only thing that makes it female is that there is a sign on the door which the cafe owner could remove tomorrow.
Could you explain how precisely any women will be negatively affected by a man using the baby changing facilities?
I bet you’d be singing a different tune if they put the changing facilities in the men’s and said sorry ladies, not allowed in there, go find another venue to change your kid or don’t go out without the kids dad in future.

The dad doesn't have 'nowhere to change the baby', though, does he? As a parent, you make all kinds of decisions every day as to where to go, which places have decent facilities and which don't. I remember avoiding certain places when my DS was little because either the facilities were often dirty, cramped or in many cases non-existent. I didn't expect the world to stop turning on its axis because I'd recently become a parent - just made decisions with DS in mind. It's actually what women have had to do for centuries.

Now that a man is inconvenienced, I'm expected to say, 'no problem mate, your needs are superior to mine - I'll just wait outside while you use a space designated for women'? Don't think so.

Think of it as a room with two separate facilities - a ladies only toilet and also a baby changing space.

And leave the pram/all our luggage unattended in the airport? Also he’s 4 months old, so it’s quite difficult to wipe oneself and wash hands effectively whilst holding a tiny, wriggly baby!

because presumably she's a lady?

How did you wash your hands after you’d pissed in a nappy? 🤢

If only people communicating their needs lead to needs being met.

I remember when I was younger my dad was our care giver while mum worked. It was 1980s and he and a few other stay at home dads lobbied a local shopping centre for Changing facilities for any sex of parent. Because he had been told he couldn't use the changing facilities in the ladies; he proceeded to change my then baby sister on the floor of the shoe department and got kicked out of the store. Of course he should use them it's not his issue the default stereotype is that changing nappies is womens work.

Yeah he shouldn’t just use the ladies. He needs to speak to the manager and state he needs to change his baby where are the facilities for this. Then he can use the ladies seeing as it’s single cubicle. The cafe need to know or they won’t bother putting facilities in the men’s. And he should just assume because he’s a man and can’t do that.

i personally wouldn’t be bother him using the ladies in that situation but I would be bothered if he was doing it without making the cafe aware they need to stop being sexist wankers

I’ll happily have a father changing a child in a single-sex toilet space, then watch a father pass a child over to a woman because of a door sign or worse, leave a child dirty.
Ask the staff by all means, but if the facilities are in one area there’s not much he can do!

Well then you’re a total twat and it’s babies and young children who suffer as a result attitudes like yours. And nobody has said how men using the baby changing facilities hurts women in any way.

Not good enough. Changing nappies shouldn’t be women’s work by default. There is no reason why a man can’t use a space like that to change a nappy. No good reason at all