Crime statistics by country of origin

[Zebedee999]

The government is proposing to publish crime statistics by country of origin.

A few weeks ago I mentioned some statistics from other European countries (and in fact the UK) showing that sex crimes against women by men of certain countries are 40 times those of the indigenous British. I got called racist (the stats are by country not race) and of course the stats were removed as racist.

Personally I think women's safety should be the overriding priority and such statistics should be used as part of a process to determine who can move to the UK. Why allow in men who statistically will carry out 40 times the sex crimes of the indigenous population? Let in women by all means.

I am genuinely interested why my view is racist when to me it is simply prioritising women's safety. AIBU to want immigration processes to prioritise women's safety?

On that basis, men shouldn't be allowed near children.

Women with certain family and personal histories shouldn't be allowed unsupervised contact with children, either.

Whatever side of the fence you are with this debate, the real point is that if these data are of no use, no purpose, why are they being collected in the first place?

Does collecting country of origin alongside crime statistics help anyone? If so, who, and/or what would be the consequence of not collecting it?

I am firmly on the fence about this, btw, but I just think that you only collect data for a purpose. If there is no purpose, then simply don't collect it.

i don’t follow your logic with that statement.

Can you explain how stats are used to create policy regarding safeguarding ?

Well I mean - that’s exactly what happens

all men aren’t allowed in women’s changing rooms - lots of men won’t pose a threat

its a basic statement on the role of probability in safeguarding/policy.

one group of people are more likely to pose a threat than another so all members of that group are excluded/have additional conditions

so if stats showed that men coming from
cultures where women/girls have limited rights are more likely to commit sexual violence for example - then the logic would be to apply particular measures on that whole group. Of course lots of options what that could be - greater education for that group, more resources to identify particular risk areas. It is entirely possible to have proportionate interventions.

ignoring statistics guarantees that there won’t be effective interventions

the grooming gangs happened because people were falling over themselves to deny that there were patterns among groups of men from particular cultures

No, i mean men shouldn't be allowed near children at all based on sex crime statistics. American white male teens shouldn't be allowed anywhere near schools, especially the ones they used to attend.

well - isn’t better awareness of watching out for the signs of abuse by men around children something that IS being increasingly talked about?

statistics inform what is a reasonable and proportionate response - the reaction that even thinking about these stats is racists is ludicrous.

and if stats show that American white male teens are a risk near schools they used to go to - I’m assuming you mean shootings?? - well then that is something you’d want to know isn’t it so you could think about whether there should be measure out in place for that group.

As she said born here will do. No need for dramatics and virtue signalling.

And yes population changed in the last two or three decades more than it did over two thousand years. Educate yourself.

I think it's fair to say that in a majority white country, the majority of sex offenders are white and a British problem. I also think it's fair to say that if someone is in the UK as an asylum seeker or does not have permanent right to remain and commits a sexual or violent offence, they should be deported back to their country of origin.

Indigenous British is a perfectly reasonable term. You have indigenous people of other countries and it doesn't imply ethnic purity at all.

Implying all men from a country must be sex offenders because of their nationality is racist. Inferring that some countries and cultures are more likely to produce sex offenders on the basis of evidence is reasonable. The age of consent in Iraq is 9. Homosexuality is outlawed in Saudi Arabia. Women are not allowed to talk in public in Afghanistan. Damn well right I'm going to make a personal assumption that these countries are more likely to produce misogynists, sex offenders and homophobes than Denmark.

That seems odd to me as it won’t identify ethnicity related crime- everyone will be British or not British.

that’s why the police record ethnicity

So you'd be satisfied with just talking to these rhetorical groups of ethnic minorities who disproportionately commit sex crimes?

The issue is not ethnicity - it is nationality. That is the identifier. You can't do much about sex offenders who are British nationals in terms of making them leave the country but you can make policies about non-British citizens who commit offences here. That hasn't been happening.

And of course all of this ignores all the things that women and girls are excluded from by default because of male violence - eg jogging at night, catching trains alone even congregating and using public spaces - the stats on how much smaller the world of women and girls are compared to men is depressing - so if the worlds of some men has to shrink I think it many cases that is a reasonable trade off

Huh?

It's difficult to imagine the level of stupidity when someone is ignorant of the fact that people from woman hating regimes are more likely to harbour views not in favour of women which would then contribute to offences.
As such sheer stupidity surely doesn't exist, there are two likely explanations

1. They are extremely detached from anyone foreign or perceived as "other cultures" so have no knowledge how many people think while engaging in virtue signalling and lip service so practicing hypocrisy
2. They hate women and people in general themselves

Your post doesn’t state how stats are used in policy regarding safeguarding.

Why don't you think that western culture is based on a women hating regime?

Haven't you met any British men?

"well - isn’t better awareness of watching out for the signs of abuse by men around children something that IS being increasingly talked about?"

So would you be happy if your male relatives or partners were subject to say, restrictions on their movements as a preventative measure against male violence?

?

statistics are used to identify trends and key risk areas?

Google “the use of stastics in safeguarding”
and you’ll get much more detailed explanations.

but put simply - stastics calculate how likely someone from a group is to do something - and then safeguarding policies are put in a place accordingly.

for example stastics might show that the chances of a woman from a particular culsture committing a sexual offense are very low. But not impossible. A man from that same culture may be stastically far more likely to commit a sexual offense.

these statistics tell us nothing about the an individual women or man. However a reasonable
policy would be to apply different conditions/rules/ etc to the man and woman if you want to minuses the chances of sexual violence.

the statistics OP is talking about may/are likely to show that a man from a particular culture is more likely to commit a sexual offense than a man from a different culture.

so a basic safeguarding principle would be to apply different rules conditions etc

for sure - correlation does not equal cause and stastics should always be approached with an open mind. But as someone just said you would have to be batshit to think that men from cultures that hate women - and who are also quite probably traumatized and emotionally unstable - are not more likely to commit sexual offences.

For sure.

my life is restricted in lots of ways because I’m a woman. No problem with that.

In what might be a big surprise to anyone who knows me, I also agree. I understood what OP meant, I'm aware that recent arrivals "not understanding" our cultural norms can create severe problems, and data is what allows us to understand what's really happening.

If you don't have numbers you have hearsay, assumptions and prejudice. Numbers are solid facts; if you don't want them it's because you're already making assumptions!

Bring it on. We can deal with things better when we know what we're dealing with.

It is an insult to the women and girls suffering across the world in brutal women hating cultures to make such a ludicrous statement.

as I said up thread - the amounts of violence and misogyny in the west is too much. Way too much. But I am sitting here writing on my own computer paid for my own job after having had a lovely walk in my tshirt and shorts about to have a look at houses I might buy with a mortgage in my own name. Having told someone on another thread to contact woman aid and that there is help for domestic violence. And knowing that if I was attacked I have male friends who would help me and a police who - most likely would help. Not to say that there are not huge problems in the police - but I’m not worried about being stoned.

You don’t the culture a man grows up is likely to
impact on his attitude to women? Really?

Trends yes, in order to put in support for victims re safeguarding. Not ban people or using it as a blunt tool, which is what the OP is advocating.

Perhaps I should have said, please link to where statistics have been used to ban certain groups based on nationality/ethnicity as per what OP is suggesting.