Crime statistics by country of origin

[Zebedee999]

The government is proposing to publish crime statistics by country of origin.

A few weeks ago I mentioned some statistics from other European countries (and in fact the UK) showing that sex crimes against women by men of certain countries are 40 times those of the indigenous British. I got called racist (the stats are by country not race) and of course the stats were removed as racist.

Personally I think women's safety should be the overriding priority and such statistics should be used as part of a process to determine who can move to the UK. Why allow in men who statistically will carry out 40 times the sex crimes of the indigenous population? Let in women by all means.

I am genuinely interested why my view is racist when to me it is simply prioritising women's safety. AIBU to want immigration processes to prioritise women's safety?

Erm - female only spaces ban men? That is the whole point of them. Good men stay out so bad men stand out etc etc

im not aware that stats have been used for any such interventions in the UK - I think that is the debate OP was starting

The police wouldn't likely help you. Especially if the person was a partner. Statistics show this to be the case. Your male friends are far more likely to ghost you than help you escape an abusive male partner, too.

Ok

Yes you can. You use that intelligence for prevention, community and engagement/ education.

again, the British Pakistani/ Bangladeshi grooming gangs are the perfect example

I take your point - but my point is that I’m in a far better place than a women in Afghanistan for example, Iran etc etc

We don’t ban men from female changing rooms because of statistics that show men are more likely to rape. It’s because of dignity and privacy, not statistics.

So when are statistics used to ban groups of people?

I’m not sure how to answer that question because it’s such a stupid question

I'd say it depends solely on that individual woman and her network. Pretty much the same as here.

Money/class would come into it, too. Location within that country.

Wherever or whoever I was, I'd hope to feel happy and safe. Some people genuinely achieve that within societies that we would find intolerable.

There is also a big issue about the attitudes men from many cultures have specifically about white women and girls.

You think that the extent of violence and oppression that a woman experiences in Afghanistan depends on the individual woman? I mean. Really?

I think a more comprehensive approach would be to look how grooming manifests in different communities and tackle that individually. What you're saying sounds too much like saying these types of crimes only occur in these specific communities. They don't. They just present in specific ways depending on the community.

Or whatever it suits some people to fit their current agenda.

Yes, not all Afghani women are subject to the treatment you imagine they are. Some don't even agree that it occurs at all because they are in their own bubble where it doesn't occur, so they think it can't occur in any sort of systemic fashion for other women. Same as here.

Genuinely interested in this? Do you have links etc on this?

Thank you, that's an excellent example of how this data will be useful.

Why did you think that view of white women and girls exists in non-white communities? I'm not even saying there isn't truth in that statement. I have my own second hand experiences of it in some ways.

I don't get the sneering at OP's use of the word indigenous. Do you sneerers react that way when you see BIPOC, where the 'I' stands for indigenous? Or is that different because it's right and proper for First Nations Canadians etc to be called indigenous, but no British of any sort can be - nope, not allowed to be called that here.

If there is evidence to prove a claim that nationals from country X are convicted of crimes at Y times the rate of the indigenous population, it's absolutely not 'racist' to say so, and burying your head in the sand about it does nobody any good.

I see no issue if statistics are presented fairly.

As an example, are white male youths more likely to be involved in violence than British Chinese. If so, looking at the factors that differentiate the two may be able to address that.

I suspect a lot of those that do not want this kind of research are actually scared the results will show what a lot of us suspect.

I think you think it sounds like that because you have a preconceived idea that anyone who talks about the ethnicity of Asian grooming gangs is a racist.

there is clearly something in the culture of 1st generation British Pakistani/ Bangladeshi men that led to their over representation in crimes of this nature. It was touched on in the recent Channel 4 documentary- the film maker had made another documentary about it which had been pulled by intervention from the police. In fact, the filmmakers had spent time the the British bangldeshi community who also had views on how the culture and background of their communities had led to the grooming gang situation. Good, normal people in that community wanted to talk about it.

its the blindness to the cultural element of these crimes- which you also sound like you are doing- that helped them get away with it as long as they did and abuse as many girls as they did.

Hmm...I think that the stats are something that need interpretation. I seem to recall the explanations are that the crimes are usually committed by men of a certain age group. They also tend to be the group that is often in the UK as economic migrants.

So, if you say 10% of 'British' men in the UK commit those crimes, it is because the other 90% of 'British' men are not in those age groups (and not committing those crimes...this is a blunt explanation as you can tell). However, when it comes to immigrant groups, you don't usually have such a broad range of age and social classes, and all those factors that can make a difference. Therefore, your stats come out as skewed as your base data is already in the higher propensity-to-commit category. This then makes 'not British' populations look worse than they actually are.

If they’re nationality stats why would age be in them at all?

my off the cuff analysis is that it’s a patriarchal mother/whore type thing going on.

Women from another culture have even less value than women from their own culture as they don’t even play a child rearing role - so they are just seen as objects for sexual abuse, targets for repressed rage etc.

there are awful issues in Australia about the way many Lebanese-Australian men view and treat white Australian women and girls.

i mean - I think the same is equally true of British or Australian men when they go overseas. Well or for Australia in Australia - the historical treatment of indigenous women and girls by white British/austrlin men was horrific. And I would imagine that there are still very many instances of that happening today, especially in remote Aborigibal communities.

I would imagine that the stats are/can be controlled for age

Yes I can probably dig out some specific links but the idea that not all women in a country would feel that they are subject to abuse shouldn't be particularly earth shattering. Women here report different experiences of male violence and oppression. We know that there are social factors that determine the liklihood of abuse occurring and the victim acknowledging that they are being abused.

For example, in Pakistani cities, among the middle and upper classes, it's expected that women are as educated as men. Where I work, there are two distinct groups of Pakistani women as immigrants. One group typically live in an affluent area and are middle to upper classed. They either attend a top South Asian, European or American University and are here to work for a while, marry and have children. Documented abuse is low.

The second group live in more deprived areas, have been here for two or three generations but people often marry an immigrant spouse, have high rates of consanguinity and are generally subject to higher mortality rates, crime, etc. Documented abuse is higher.

These sorts of trends can be seen among all communities.

So basically it could be easier for men to abuse people when they feel less proximity to the person.

Maybe all humans find it easier to "push the button" when they feel removed from the subject.