Crime statistics by country of origin

[Zebedee999]

The government is proposing to publish crime statistics by country of origin.

A few weeks ago I mentioned some statistics from other European countries (and in fact the UK) showing that sex crimes against women by men of certain countries are 40 times those of the indigenous British. I got called racist (the stats are by country not race) and of course the stats were removed as racist.

Personally I think women's safety should be the overriding priority and such statistics should be used as part of a process to determine who can move to the UK. Why allow in men who statistically will carry out 40 times the sex crimes of the indigenous population? Let in women by all means.

I am genuinely interested why my view is racist when to me it is simply prioritising women's safety. AIBU to want immigration processes to prioritise women's safety?

But how will it tell me about “behaviour of different groups of men”?

It will only tell me about a subset of men who happen to be sex offenders.

If statistics show me that a higher % of men from Sweden are likely to be sex offenders but that equates to 2% of men from Sweden then I would wonder what I am supposed to be panicking about.

And if government want to do something about those stats that’s fine but I would only support treating Swedes (in this example) as individuals.

@JHound here’s an analogy. Racism amount police has been identified as a problem. Do you think all police should go through racism training or just the racist ones?

You see the problem there?

one way to reduce risks if particular nationalities are shown to be more likely to offend is to require women’s rights training and additional oversight. And you can’t pick out which are the men who will offend in that group - so they all do the training and have additional oversight.

your statement is just the classic Not All Men trope

do you think trends among groups should always be ignored in public policy? Cause they’re not. At all. What’s different about this scenario other than it’s about men and sexual offences against women and girls.

Do you think all men should be excluded from women’s spaces? You know that’s because of trends among men not about individual men right?

It will tell you about the behaviour of Swedish men at a group level? That they are more likely to be violent against women and girls?

it’s not telling you something about a subset of Swedes - it’s telling you something about Swedish men as a group

why isn’t that something that is important to know?

How will it tell me that about Swedish men at a group level?

Will negative information about a small subset of British women tell you anything about the whole? Why would I be assessed by comparing me to somebody with whom I merely happen to share a land of birth?

Do crime statistics in the UK tell us anything about all British men at a group level?

I get of they tell me the statistics compared to the group as a whole but if I learn that 2% of Swedish men in the UK are sex offenders what meaningful have I learned?

I have nothing against that info being shared but for me I see it as about useful as a chocolate teapot.

I don’t get the analogy in relation to anything being discussed here.

If you mean should women’s rights training be given to would be migrants as standard (specifically asylum seekers where the assessment criteria is different to that of migrants coming through skilled entry pathways) I have zero issue with that.

I would also throw in anti-racism training for all would be migrants and more broadly cultural awareness training for all those seeking to migrate to the UK.

well if 2%of Swedes who immigrate to the UK are sex offenders and 49% of Danes are - you learn that Danes pose a greater risk to women and girls in Britain than Swedes. That sounds quite an important thing to know if you want to prevent violence against women and girls in Britain don’t you think?

Well that’s what I said.

The latter stat is far more relevant than the former.

It’s not about what it tells you about what men in Sweden do in Sweden - it’s about what men from Sweden are likely/unlikely to do in Britain.

Eh?

And yeah crime statistics tell us at a lot about British men at a group level! How on earth do they not?

They tell us that men are a lot more likely to commit violent offences than women. The other half of the population.

Surely those Danes have criminal convictions otherwise we wouldn't know if they were sex offenders.

We already refuse entry to people who pose a serious threat or have convictions of a year or more. People who commit sexual offenses or are recorded on a sexual offender register are also refused.

I imagine the OP means people who have the cultural values of this country - eg equality for women -

@MiloMinderbinder925 the stastics are about offences committed in the UK - that is the entire point

I see. What you're saying is that 49% of Danes become sexual offenders only when in the UK. They aren't sexual offenders in Denmark.

@MiloMinderbinder925 do you understand the issue yet?

if say 8 out of 10 Danes who move to the UK commit a sexual offences committed- the issue is whether it’s fair to exclude the two who won’t because thst will protect 8 women.

but it’s of course not as simplistic as that.

well actually it is

well they might be - but the specific stastics the OP is talking about the stastics in Britain

and for many countries you wouldn’t really want to rely on their oversight of male sexual offences

Has the penny dropped yet @MiloMinderbinder925 - do you understand that I’m not a frothing man hating racist yet?

I understand that you see it as simplistic.

It's quite the headscratcher that Danes are only sexually offending in the UK with no previous history of offending.

I didn’t say it tells me about what men do in Sweden.

But if 2% of Swedish male immigrants to Britain are sex offenders it also tells me little about what Swedish men are likely to do in Britain.

It’s like the stats on people raised by single mothers.

People love to say that oh XX percent of people in jail are raised by single mothers. OK cool. And what percentage of people raised by single mothers go to jail?

But to reiterate I have zero issue with training on women’s rights and general cultural awareness going wherever it is needed.

But for me personally just telling me crime stats for immigrants by country of origin is not going to tell me anything of value in and of itself without also giving me the stats for that as a proportion of that group.

But maybe Denmark doesn’t criminalize sex crimes? Maybe it doesn’t prosecute them? Maybe it’s a country in disarray where civil society has collapsed?

I mean - you need to walk through the logic when you throw out statements.

It is a stat as a portion of that group or am I misunderstanding you?

eg 2% of Swedes who come to British commit sexual offences, compared to 1% of adifferentcoubtry compared to 30% from madeupland. You would of course expect to see a correlation from the country of origin - but not if the country of origin has a very different approach to sex crimes so therefore such stats aren’t available

With a visa. How about asylum? How do we know?

You're the one who chose Denmark and you're perfectly aware that they do record sex crimes and have a robust legal system.

It's already been explained that we don't give visas to people who commit sex crimes are on registers or pose a threat.

okay cool - so what about a country with all those factors I listed?