To ask if you are not a Christian, what non Christian values you live by?

[BlossomBlanket]

Just that really!

Of course not. It is certainly possible for some, because Christians come in many different flavours. But we live in a world where Christian parents still disavow their kids for being gay and do not provide them with sensible sex education because hey, abstinence. So there are families where religion is providing a deeply dysfunctional way of living for many young people. And again, this doesn't just apply to Christians.

Agreed. As it happens, I have only ever slept with my DH. Not because of any fear or arbitrary moral judgment but simply because he was the first person that I actually wanted to sleep with and then we got married a few years later!

Well, then maybe you should be more clear that you're essentially taking issue with a form of Christian extremism which is IME very much a minority 'flavour'. Of course these things happen, but I'm not aware of any mainstream Christian church in this country, in the present day, that would advise any of that. And that's not the impression you give with your posting, so again I come back to the impression that you have a bit of anti-Christian bigotry. If you wouldn't casually drop negative stereotypes into your conversations and posts about other faiths because you recognise that it paints a distorted and inflammatory picture, maybe you could ease off on the suggestion that Christian families are living in a kind of Victorian hellscape of prudery and hellfire preaching.

Nice try, you have no idea. In a broader sense though, the kids aren't alright though are they? Loneliness, mental health issues, anxiety and depression only keep increasing.

So they should all follow God and that will solve the modern day problems?

Maybe you need to look more broadly at why these things are happening. Because some of these kids will have been brought up in a Christian household. Will that make a difference on the stats?

I doubt it, because everyone I know brought up as a practicing Christian, in any denomination, broadly face the same problems as those not. Because it's the world we live in, not the lack of faith, that's causing those.

most religions rely upon behaviours that harm girls

i say most. I mean all.

I used to think that, but look at what's happening in a post-Christian culture. Rampant, normalised sexual abuse straight from porn, boys and young men idolising the likes of Andrew Tate, incels, etc. Christianity did a pretty good job of curtailing men's worst instincts.

Is this a joke?

Andrew Tate and such definitely subscribe to more "traditional" ideas, borne from religions such as Christianity, that men are providers and women's place is at home.

Women were created to be soft, nurturing, caring, mothers. That's standard across most religions.

Christianity didn't curtail the instincts. It normalised the behaviour to women. And most of the abuse just happened behind closed doors.

Yes, there are indeed a lot of mental health problems. Do you think young people brought up in Christian households are immune from these problems? Because that certainly isn't what I have observed.

Thank you for telling me how to post. I won't be doing that.

I am responding to the posters on here who claim that any principle anyone lives by, even atheists, is a Christian one. I am responding to people who claim Christianity = morality. The OP is still implying that religion makes life better for everyone, and slyly suggesting that the mental health crisis among young people is due to a lack of religion instead of, say, lack of housing, lack of job prospects, fallout from lockdown, the wars all over the world. Life is complicated and multifactorial. Looking backwards to'the good old days' is never helpful.

I have no issue with Christianity or any other faith - but when the organised manifestations of those faiths wreak havoc, as in the US, Africa ( both Islam and Christianity here), India, Iran, I take issue with that. If that touches a nerve and leads to posters skim reading what I write for a nice simplistic portrayal of what I'm actually saying, that's on them.

None of my children are Baptised. Below is an AI summary of the studies into psychological well being and religion. Some facts and evidence for you.

"Several studies have explored the relationship between religion, spirituality, and mental health, including happiness. A review of current scientific evidence suggests that higher levels of spirituality and religiousness (S/R) are generally associated with lower depressive symptoms and better mental health outcomes, including happiness.19 For instance, a study published in the American Journal of Epidemiology found that participating in spiritual practices during childhood and adolescence may protect against depression, substance abuse, and risk-taking behaviors, and contribute to higher happiness in early adulthood.3
A comprehensive review of the literature by Harold G. Koenig, a professor of psychiatry at Duke University School of Medicine, concluded that a large volume of research shows that people who are more religious/spiritual have better mental health and adapt more quickly to health problems compared to those who are less religious/spiritual.8
It is important to note that while there is evidence suggesting a positive association between religion and mental health, including happiness, the mechanisms explaining these associations and the role of religious interventions need further study.159
In summary, the current scientific evidence suggests that religion and spirituality are generally associated with better mental health outcomes, including happiness, but the relationship is complex and requires further investigation to fully understand its nuances and implications."

I mean AI is great and all for helping to write posts on MN, but it is not yet at a point it can be relied upon to give a comprehensive, factual, unbiased overview of anything.

How many of those studies have you read for yourself? Have you verified who commissioned & funded the studies? I'd be willing to bet it was organisations at least associated with religion if not religious institutions. When we talk about fact checking and reliable sources, we mean unbiased studies, carried out independently. We verify the sources and why they were commissioned.

Have you looked at studies regarding other factors which impact on mental health, or just ones that suit your agenda here?

Not remotely, even for you to disagree with I highly recommend Louise Perry's The Case Against the sexual revolution https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Case_Against_the_Sexual_Revolution

So those studies relate to religions in general, and not just Christianity?

Things like feeling part of a community can undoubtedly be protective factors, but that has more to do with people than with God, and community can be achieved through other means.

Things like meditation also have significant health benefits, but again, nothing to do with God.

If Christianity was the solution, then we wouldn't expect to see young Christians struggling with the same mental health problems as their peers. And yet they do.

It was fairly uncontroversial when I studied the Sociology of religion, even among those who were atheists which were most of us including myself at the time. No, I haven't read them all and I'm not going to, for the exact same reasons you haven't and are not going to. This is a great lesson in practice of why "facts and evidence" really are not the arbiters in many disputes these days. Even if I did, you wouldn't. And it wouldn't shift your beliefs. You think I'm biased. I think you're biased. And the scientific process is far too arduous, particularly in the social sciences to be of any real use.

Community can... but in practise isn't. Community everywhere is thinning out without religion to bind it together.

Claiming that Christianity curbed men's worst instincts when there have been so many abuse scandals within the church is actually pretty outrageous. Particularly as there have been persistent failures to deal with these issues at the highest levels.

If God's own priests can commit horrific abuse and be allowed by their peers to get away with it, then forgive me for not putting my faith in the ability of Christianity to curb the instincts of predatory men.

Such an astonishing lack of reflection and awareness.

People can and do create communities without religion. We need to encourage more of this.

I will read studies that have been carried out independently and from unbiased funding sources. And sometimes those from biased and use common sense to see what they wanted it to show but use the results to base my opinion on things.

Facts and evidence are still a thing, you not being arsed to verify them doesn't change that.

You may have studied sociology, I studied science, most specifically physics, and as part of our course we were taught how to differentiate between crap published to prove a certain point and legitimate studies. You seem to have been taught that facts aren't real, which is worrying.

Yes, there have been huge failures in the church as an institution. And predators have a way of inserting themselves into all sorts of organisations and grooming everyone around them. You couldn't be more wrong in suggesting a lack of reflection and awareness on my part. Its precisely because of the destructive potential of unfettered male sexuality that things are exponentially worse in the absence of a shared and deeply rooted understanding of sexual ethics. You're incredibly blinkered if you think your liberal and secular worldview is capable of tackling this. How's that going so far?

How's it going? I'd say that it's going about as well as the efforts to tackle abuse within the church tbh.

You say that you've reflected and that you're aware, but I'm really struggling to see how you could have made the comment that you did above about Christianity curbing men's worst instincts without even a nod to the fact that there has been such a culture in the church of turning a blind eye to abuse.

You say that things are worse without a shared and deeply rooted understanding of sexual ethics, but I wonder what your evidence is for this. How do you think the experience of abuse victims in the church was better because of this shared and deeply rooted understanding? And how did that shared and deeply rooted understanding of sexual ethics inform how the church dealt with these abuses? Can you point to some evidence of how their handling of these matters has been superior to what happens in the rest of society? What best practice has the church modelled in responding to these incidents that should be emulated by the rest of us?

You think I'm incredibly blinkered. I think that's incredibly ironic.

Thanks for removing any doubt about your ability or willingness to make a fair assessment. It's a shame really because there is the potential for a more interesting conversation, but never mind.

@Insanityisnotastrategy I think the sexual revolution requires a more nuanced assessment. I agree there has been negative fallout, but I also think it isn't finished yet. I think one current development is that women are now seeing that it is also fine NOT to have sex and want it, and that trend is still unwinding itself.

And given the utter failure of religious structures to curb predatory men and their entitlement to women's bodies, going backwards would achieve nothing.

How on earth can we have an interesting conversation when you are so dismissive about the perceived inadequacy of my "blinkered liberal and secular worldview" while you yourself show no humility and no ability to reflect on how Christians have failed in this area every bit as much as the rest of society?

It is astonishing to me that you would adopt such an arrogant and self-congratulatory position, as if Christianity somehow has all the answers, while simultaneously offering not a shred of evidence for how the church can help in these situations.

It is telling that you have chosen to step back from the conversation when asked to provide some examples of how the church might be able to lead on this issue. I understand.