To ask if you are not a Christian, what non Christian values you live by?

[BlossomBlanket]

Just that really!

That people are neither born nor made equal, and do not have equal value to your life. Equality is a false Christian belief.

Arguably a moral atheist is more moral than a moral religious person.

We can be certain the former chooses to be a good person because it is the right thing to do rather than acting out of fear of retribution in the afterlife.

That very neatly sums up my feelings on the matter :)

Good summary of my position. No threats or fears but just a good life.

As someone who has explored Christianity, Buddhism and the old norse ways as well as researching others...lemme tell you...all religions boil down to don't be a dick. I mean, even the Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth involve don't harm kids and don't make sexual advances unless you're given the green light.

In short my values are:

Dont be a c**t unless they deserve it.

Good grief, you do love to throw verbal grenades, don't you? Arrogant, self-congratulatory, lacking in reflection and awareness. Ok. I apologise for expressing an opinion. You're projecting an awful lot onto me there which I have neither expressed nor felt.

And your sly implication that I'm deliberately ignoring a question I hadn't actually seen? How deeply unpleasant. People skim read and have lives outside of mumsnet. Maybe you could assume I'm reflecting on what you've said and considering my response? Although actually I was getting ready for work.

As far as evidence, you either have pattern recognition or you don't. You either see the unbelievable levels of out and proud misogyny, exploitation, pornification, increasingly extreme sexual behaviours, proliferation of Only Fans etc etc or you don't. And if you do, why on earth would you question whether the church played a role in actually holding back some of the unbridled hedonism and predation that has been allowed to wreak havoc on us? Why? Because you don't want to acknowledge the truth of that. You would rather live in a fantasy that we can hold back that tide with middle class conversations over the dinner table.

Abuse and hypocrisy and corruption is tragically found in EVERY institution, so I'm sorry, but pointing to that as egregious as it is, does not negate the point I was making.

And I will now not be responding because I'm going to work.

I am an atheist but don’t understand this thinking. What is your morality? What do you define as a moral obligation or behavior? If it resembles Christianity then arguably you haven’t left the Christian framework at all

Something can resemble another thing but not actually be it.

Christianity isn't the first "morality" framework in existence, and definitely is based on others. So having similarities in your moral code to a Christian doesn't mean you haven't "left the framework".

Good behaviour - being a good person. Has nothing to do with Christianity.

Good people were around before organised religion.

The world would be a better place if we kept it that simple.

What we think of as moral behaviour has its roots millennia before Christianity even existed. Just because Christians codified it a few thousand years ago as a means of controlling the masses and, conveniently, raising money doesn’t mean they invented it :)

It’s not the first nor even the latest but Western morality very clearly evolved from Christian morality. Universal values are not universal, they are rooted in a cultural system. You can’t see it because you are swimming in it.

Your concept of ‘being a good person’ is very likely based upon Christian principles though. ‘Good people’ in pre-Christian societies would act very differently to you (in some ways better than Christianity but probably not seem
so to you)

I'm not throwing grenades, I'm merely reflecting my own observations.

And honestly, I think you are the one living in some sort of fantasy land where the church has somehow been a champion in the fight against misogyny over the centuries. What's your evidence for that? From my perspective, the Bible, and the Christian Church, are absolutely riddled with misogyny... surely you don't think any of this is new?

And yes, technology has evolved and the ways in which misogyny is expressed have changed, but I don't look back through history and see some sort of glorious past in which the world was full of good Christians abiding by an agreed moral code. There have been so many horrors and abuses that were perpetrated in the name of Christianity throughout history, and many more perpetrated by people who have considered themselves to be Christians. And even today, the church seems to struggle to be able to face up to the horrific abuse perpetrated by its own clergy.

So yes, I do think it's arrogant and self congratulatory to suggest that the Church is somehow in a position to provide moral leadership on this issue. I have seen absolutely nothing to suggest that the church has anything to offer in this domain.

I'm more than happy to live and let live when it comes to other people's beliefs. I have friends of all faiths and none, and I respect each and every one of them. However, I have very little tolerance for those who assume that their chosen religion gives them some sort of moral superiority when there is no evidence to suggest that adherents to that religion actually behave in a morally superior way.

I will give an example.

People in the West are often astonished to go to a place like China and realize that lying doesn’t really carry the same moral weight. Sometimes it is even seen as your fault for being so naive.

Like, I find in the West people are downright OFFENDED if you call them a liar. Like the word and concept has some sort of moral weight. Like, sometimes the lie itself is besides the point. The fact you even tried to lie is bad!

Just a different moral system tbh

A quick google of what are Christian principles .

Not something I follow - I don’t love my enemies, wouldn’t necessarily forgive others (kill a member of my family, I would want you dead), I don’t recognise god or have any faith in him and obedience isn’t a given - would depend on the circumstances.

Christian Moral and Ethical Principles:
Love:
Love for God and love for one's neighbor are central to Christian ethics. This includes loving one's enemies, showing compassion, and seeking the well-being of others.

Forgiveness:
Christians are called to forgive others, as God has forgiven them.

Humility:
Christians are encouraged to be humble, recognizing their dependence on God and valuing others.

Faithfulness:
Living a life of faith, trust, and obedience to God's will is a key principle.

Generosity:
Sharing one's time, talents, and resources with others, especially those in need, is a common Christian value.

No, I can absolutely see that we are a society built on Christian beliefs and traditions.

What you can't apparently see is that Christianity wasn't some new, lightbulb moment of "this is what moral framework the world should have". It's evolved from a moral framework before it that society largely stuck to, or wanted to stick to (hence it taking off like it did).

Therefore, you can have a moral code that in some ways matches Christianity and still not being following a Christian moral code.

Having lived in several countries without any history of a Christian tradition, including one that was never even colonised by Christians, I would agree that there are some cultural differences, and differences in how people present things, but I think these differences tend to get overplayed in discussions like this.

Fundamentally, I have found human beings to be pretty much the same everywhere.

What you can't apparently see is that Christianity wasn't some new, lightbulb moment of "this is what moral framework the world should have". It's evolved from a moral framework before itthat society largely stuck to, or wanted to stick to (hence it taking off like it did)

And what moral code was that? It was a radical disruption with traditional norms of the time. To be honest, I don’t think it ultimately served the West well, but it shaped the world you live in today—what pre-Christian moral code do you really follow?

Personally I consider Wokeness sort of a further evolution (maybe perversion) of Christian norms.

You must not gave met any mormons, then, because “lying for the lord” is definitely a thing.

All societies, western and non western, have rules about deception and the main differences are in how and when it is permissible to deceive. Car dealers, police, spies, politicians all will always claim to be speaking the truth but in the course of their everyday work will routinely lie. Its so well known there are even phrases for it such as “testilying” and “lying in state.”

That stuff was happening but we weren’t allowed to talk about it and worse it was illegal. Rape in marriage as an example did not exist. There is an arena for them to talk preciesely because this stuff is no longer normalised.

All of these are also obviously characteristic if Buddhism. And most of them were directly borrowed from Judaism.

Indeed, you could argue that Christianity promoted a culture of shame and guilt that made it much harder for victims of rape and sexual assault to speak up.

The majority of which I don’t agree with.