Page 18 | To ask if you are not a Christian, what non Christian values you live by?

LuckyPeonies · 06/05/2025 22:26

My values are to not do any kind of harm, if I can avoid it.

As for religion, IMO it is all about power and control, based on an old book of fables and fairytales. It used to be a construct to keep people fearful and compliant and bamboozle the working class into accepting awful conditions, exploitation, and abuses by dangling the rewards of the afterlife.

If they behaved and did what they were told by the church (which was financed by the same people who benefitted from exploiting them), they were reassured they would go to their ‘reward’.

Nowadays, it is a political tool, at least here in the states. The assertion that trump and his supporters are ‘good christians’ is laughable, which also goes for all the ‘televangelists’ who exploit hordes of utterly gullible people.

All of it is ridiculous and could be easily dismissed, if it wasn’t for the huge influence fake christians have on politics, laws, and personal rights.

Original poster

BlossomBlanket · 07/05/2025 01:16

Fathomsbelow · 06/05/2025 22:05

I'm of the former beliefs @esthersouwester but have been happily nodding away to your posts thus far! I'm not overly familiar with the ins and outs of Catholic doctrine though.

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/religion/2016/09/tom-holland-why-i-was-wrong-about-christianity

Tom Holland authored the book Dominion. He concludes:

It is an attempt to trace back my liberalist, humanist values and to see where it leads through the labyrinth. Ultimately it leads back to Christianity and I've come to the conclusion that in almost all of the essentials, myself, my friends, the society in which I live and the whole of the west is so saturated in Christian assumptions that it is almost impossible to remove ourselves from them.

Dominion was the inspiration for this post

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Original poster

BlossomBlanket · 07/05/2025 01:40

Riaanna · 06/05/2025 22:03

Because sex and reproduction are two entirely different things. Do you only have sex to breed?

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Technically sex oriented around anything other than reproduction is disordered

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Original poster

BlossomBlanket · 07/05/2025 01:44

pointythings · 06/05/2025 21:43

Oh, that's simple. You have but to look at the animal kingdom to see that homosexual couples serve an evolutionary purpose, because they tend to adopt offspring whose parents have died and who would otherwise not have survived.

This makes religious opposition to adoption by gay couples look rather foolish. Having a group of people in a society who are not driven by the urge to procreate can be incredibly useful to that society. Nature can be very pragmatic in her approach. it is

On morality as driven by survival of the species - well, that should be obvious. Without prohibitions against murder, rape, theft and the like, it is far less likely that a given society will survive and prosper. Again, pragmatism. Look at social animals and you will see many of the same rules we humans have enacted.

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How is rape immoral within this framework?

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QuaintShaker · 07/05/2025 04:22

BlossomBlanket · 07/05/2025 01:44

How is rape immoral within this framework?

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For the same reason as most other laws. For people to harmoniously co-exist, allowing socitieis to survive and flourish, basic codes of behavior are required.

Rape is a slightly more complex (and unpleasant) one, in that anti-rape laws were, intially, generally focused on the non-transgression of the property rights of the man to whom the raped woman "belonged" and the harm done to that man. Obviously, over time and as women's agency and rights became recognized, then rape laws (in some cultures, at least) became more focused on the harm (violence) against the victim themselves.

I think its fair to point out, in the context of this conversation, that biblical prohibitions of rape (which are largely confined to the Old Testament, Jesus didn't speak about it) are very much rooted in the notion of women as men's property (as was the wider view of the time) - hence the "punishment" for raping a virgin is a financial payment to her father and the forced marriage of rapist and victim. The Bible is largely unconcerned with the victims themselves.

I think it's very fair to say that most modern Christians' views of the moral wrongfulness of rape similarly come from the recognition of women's agency, and their right to be free from acts of violence, rather than from scripture.

echt · 07/05/2025 04:24

Don't be a knob is value to live by.

I can't say I manage it.

BlueEyedBogWitch · 07/05/2025 05:45

I redacted my comment because I was ashamed of it.

So I guess I live by taking responsibility for my words.

I find the Noble Eightfold Path to be the best guide to life.

Brahumbug · 07/05/2025 06:01

Fathomsbelow · 06/05/2025 21:35

@MrsBennetsPoorNerves I'm happy to agree to disagree. To add to the pp - C.S.Lewis argues that morality is a universal and objective reality, not merely a product of human preference or societal norms. He suggests that morality is concerned with fair play, individual character, and the overall purpose of human life. Lewis posits that a genuine moral law exists, which transcends individual desires and societal dictates, and points to a supernatural reality as its source.

A surprising amount of people don't know the Bible isn't one book @Brahumbug. It's a bit of a sweeping statement to say that outside of Paul's writings the rest of the Bible was written anonymously. Authors include Moses, Solomon, King David, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, the Apostles etc.
God does not condone slavery. It was documented and at times regulated within the scriptures.

So no matter how good your words and deeds are, you're fucked if you don't follow one additional rule - believe in Jesus.

"No one comes to the Father except through me." JC

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.
@KrisAkabusi

It's a sweeping statement because it's largely true, Moses for example is almost certainly a mystical character, and the other writings are largely attributions. The new testament synoptic gospels for example are definitely anonymous despite the names associated with them. As for 'believe in Jesus', we haven't established that such a belief is necessary or required as the evidence for that position is distinctly lacking.
You can argue that there are objective standards of behaviour, even if the initial postulates are subjective, but that does not point in anyway to a supernatural origin. The subjective criteria can be, life is better than death, health better than sickness, empathy for other living creatures to name a few. From that you can derive objective standards such as no murder. Secular morality requires no supernatural agent. Especially one who takes the time to condemn tattoos and beard trimming but doesn't say oh by the way owning another person as property is wrong.

Riaanna · 07/05/2025 06:23

BlossomBlanket · 07/05/2025 01:40

Technically sex oriented around anything other than reproduction is disordered

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Says who?

EsmeSusanOgg · 07/05/2025 07:13

esthersouwester · 06/05/2025 20:46

To come to God and be saved, you need to repent, have faith, and be baptized.

If you commit mortal sin, you need to repent, have faith, and go to confession.

That's it.

No-one get "sent to Hell", some people choose to go there and God will honour that choice.

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That is so unbelievably sanctimonious and an attempt to obfuscate with semantics and logical fallacies.

Belief is not a choice. You believe, or you do not believe. If you need proof - you are not a believer (note the story of Doubting Thomas).

The idea that a genuinely good person who had either 1) never heard of God/ Jesus et al or 2) had, but was simply honest enough to say they do not believe/ would need some level of evidence to be convinced would go to Hell is not indicative of a kind or loving God. It is vindictive and petty - which sound more like human attributes/ the attributes of people who want you to submit to what they say is the truth.

EsmeSusanOgg · 07/05/2025 07:16

BlossomBlanket · 07/05/2025 01:40

Technically sex oriented around anything other than reproduction is disordered

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That is not backed by science. Otherwise, quite simply, orgasms would not exist. There are a number of species who enjoy sex for pleasure and as ways of showing affection/ closeness - not just humans.

Just watch a few David Attenborough documentaries.

esthersouwester · 07/05/2025 07:21

EsmeSusanOgg · 07/05/2025 07:13

That is so unbelievably sanctimonious and an attempt to obfuscate with semantics and logical fallacies.

Belief is not a choice. You believe, or you do not believe. If you need proof - you are not a believer (note the story of Doubting Thomas).

The idea that a genuinely good person who had either 1) never heard of God/ Jesus et al or 2) had, but was simply honest enough to say they do not believe/ would need some level of evidence to be convinced would go to Hell is not indicative of a kind or loving God. It is vindictive and petty - which sound more like human attributes/ the attributes of people who want you to submit to what they say is the truth.

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I've given you the Catholic perspective, if you don't like it, that's your choice.

Insulting peoples' ideas and muddying the waters with a word salad shows you haven't read one word I said or taken it in.
It seems my post about Invicible Ignorance passed you by?

As I said "your choice".

sashh · 07/05/2025 07:36

Well I believe it is OK for people to marry a partner of the same sex.

I think rape is vile regardless of whether the woman screams or not. I also think it is a pretty big miss from the 10 commandments.

I don't celebrate Christian holidays.

I don't visit a religious building every week with other people.

I don't believe sexual abuse of children (or anyone) should be covered up to save the face of an organisation whether that is a faith group or another group.

I find December like being in North Korea, all the music in shops is about the great leader, the shops are full of things about the great leader, special great leader food, all the TV has great leader story lines.

EsmeSusanOgg · 07/05/2025 08:14

esthersouwester · 06/05/2025 21:19

I'm not concerned. I am just pointing out that your earlier statement was in fact incorrect and that there absolutely are Christians who believe that non-believers are automatically destined for Hell.

No I was correct..
If they believe this then they are not Christian.

Think of all the millions of people who were born, lived and died before Our Lord walked the earth, and therefore had no knowledge of him and no chance to believe in Him, do.people really think all these people are in Hell?

In Catholic theology, the "Limbo of the Fathers" (or "Limbo of the Patriarchs") is a concept that explains the state of righteous souls from the Old Testament who died before the coming of Christ. It's a place where they awaited Christ's redemption and entry into heaven. This concept is also known as "Hades" or "Sheol," and it was believed to be a temporary place where the souls of the just were held until Christ descended into it and freed them.

Likewise people who have not got the intellect (through no fault of their own) who cannot understand theological concepts will not be punished for lack of understanding.
Only those who have the use of reason are capable of committing serious sin.

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Grew up attending an open Plymouth Brethren chapel. Absolutely there are Christian denominations that believe this. We were told that before Jesus' resurrection only god's chosen people the Jews would go to heaven.

This is why there are multiple Christian denominations, all with different interpretations of the bible.

EsmeSusanOgg · 07/05/2025 08:16

I was not popular in Sunday school when I asked multiple hypothetical scenarios based on this point.

It was very much also taught in the Anglican church that we went to for Guides once a month.

EsmeSusanOgg · 07/05/2025 08:17

I was not popular in Sunday school when I asked multiple hypothetical scenarios based on this point.

It was very much also taught in the Anglican church that we went to for Guides once a month.

EsmeSusanOgg · 07/05/2025 08:20

esthersouwester · 07/05/2025 07:21

I've given you the Catholic perspective, if you don't like it, that's your choice.

Insulting peoples' ideas and muddying the waters with a word salad shows you haven't read one word I said or taken it in.
It seems my post about Invicible Ignorance passed you by?

As I said "your choice".

Edited

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I'm not muddying the waters. I am disagreeing with you. I am also pointing out the obvious flaws in your argument.

The definition of sanctimonious is 'making a show of being morally superior'. It is a factual description of your comments.

MayMadness2025 · 07/05/2025 08:22

BlossomBlanket · 03/05/2025 12:47

But it isn't. Because the subject of said "murder" has many interpretations

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Lots of Christians, Muslims, non religious people have 'murdered' sometimes whilst shouting about their religion.

esthersouwester · 07/05/2025 09:31

EsmeSusanOgg · 07/05/2025 08:20

I'm not muddying the waters. I am disagreeing with you. I am also pointing out the obvious flaws in your argument.

The definition of sanctimonious is 'making a show of being morally superior'. It is a factual description of your comments.

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If I am sanctimonious with "obviously flawed arguments" why are you bothering to engage with me?

Why does it matter to you what I think/believe?

How does it affect your life?

esthersouwester · 07/05/2025 09:38

@EsmeSusanOgg Grew up attending an open Plymouth Brethren chapel. Absolutely there are Christian denominations that believe this. We were told that before Jesus' resurrection only god's chosen people the Jews would go to heaven.

OK

Plymouth Brethren believe the Bible, both the Old and New Testaments, to be the inspired and infallible Word of God, providing guidance for all aspects of life. They prioritize the Bible over tradition and human interpretations

They also reject the concept of clergy.

So where is this stated in the Bible ?
We were told that before Jesus' resurrection only god's chosen people the Jews would go to heaven.

Maddy70 · 07/05/2025 10:01

I'm not a Christian but I don't go around stealing and murdering etc. I probably live by an the commandments

RufustheFactuaIReindeer · 07/05/2025 11:30

No I was correct..
If they believe this then they are not Christian.

you can’t make blanket statements like this and not expect people to disagree

esthersouwester · 07/05/2025 12:12

RufustheFactuaIReindeer · 07/05/2025 11:30

No I was correct..
If they believe this then they are not Christian.

you can’t make blanket statements like this and not expect people to disagree

People are free to disagree.

godmum56 · 07/05/2025 13:14

I covet my neighbours ass constantly and I go shopping on the sabbath when I can be bothered.

Original poster

BlossomBlanket · 07/05/2025 16:24

QuaintShaker · 07/05/2025 04:22

For the same reason as most other laws. For people to harmoniously co-exist, allowing socitieis to survive and flourish, basic codes of behavior are required.

Rape is a slightly more complex (and unpleasant) one, in that anti-rape laws were, intially, generally focused on the non-transgression of the property rights of the man to whom the raped woman "belonged" and the harm done to that man. Obviously, over time and as women's agency and rights became recognized, then rape laws (in some cultures, at least) became more focused on the harm (violence) against the victim themselves.

I think its fair to point out, in the context of this conversation, that biblical prohibitions of rape (which are largely confined to the Old Testament, Jesus didn't speak about it) are very much rooted in the notion of women as men's property (as was the wider view of the time) - hence the "punishment" for raping a virgin is a financial payment to her father and the forced marriage of rapist and victim. The Bible is largely unconcerned with the victims themselves.

I think it's very fair to say that most modern Christians' views of the moral wrongfulness of rape similarly come from the recognition of women's agency, and their right to be free from acts of violence, rather than from scripture.

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This is covered by chastity no? You don't have sex with people you're not married to, let alone rape them.

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