To ask if you are not a Christian, what non Christian values you live by?

[BlossomBlanket]

Just that really!

@pointythings My issue is with organised religion infringing on my freedom of choice as a woman and on my DC's freedom of choice as people who are gay.

So how do you think this is happening to you (in UK)?

What "infringements" in your life do you blame on "organised religion" ?

We still have 'compulsory acts of broadly Christian worship' in our schools. The words 'compulsory' and 'worship' should never sit in the same sentence, so that needs to go.

There is no real school choice because in some areas, religiously affiliated schools are the only things available. State funded schools should be secular.

We have bishops sitting in the House of Lords, taking part in making legislation. They need to go.

Until recently it was legal for people to protest outside abortion clinics and intimidate vulnerable women - and even now the protesters are still trying it on.

Churches are exempt from paying council tax.

Also I was speaking on a global level, not just in terms of the UK. Religion in individuals is fine. Organised religion is not generally a force for good.

Care to address the points I made about male headship and the church's enthusiastic support for the persecution of homosexuals in much of Africa? Want to comment on the Prosperity Gospel churches? Keen on Trump's America, where women are dying because their medical care might be seen as 'abortion', even when it's not?

Protect the environment.

Do what I want and let others do what they want as long as it doesn't hurt anyone.

Try to generally increase happiness and connection.

Some of these practices still go on. And when do you think Moses received the commandments? In 2023?

Your main complaint was, as I recall My issue is with organised religion infringing on my freedom of choice as a woman and on my DC's freedom of choice as people who are gay.

We still have 'compulsory acts of broadly Christian worship' in our schools. The words 'compulsory' and 'worship' should never sit in the same sentence, so that needs to go.
That is the law and we can't pick and choose which laws we do and don't obey.
School worship is not compulsory as parents can opt their children out of this, Alternatively there is the option of home-schooling.

There is no real school choice because in some areas, religiously affiliated schools are the only things available. State funded schools should be secular.

The lack of schools in rural areas is down to a lack of population, If it wasn't for C of E Schools there wouldn't be any schools at all. You can't blame the lack of population on religion, it's common in most farming areas. As the school rolls fall the schools close and then parents have to take their children to the nearest town.

I agree with removing non-elected people from the House of Lords.
However, how this is to be done has been the subject of discussion for years.

Until recently it was legal for people to protest outside abortion clinics and intimidate vulnerable women - and even now the protesters are still trying it on.

So our right to peaceful protest in removed in this area but allowed for Pro-Palestinian Protesters who intimidate large areas of London, call for Jihad on out streets and show antisemetic placards. Seems oddly unfair to me.

Churches are exempt from paying council tax.
Correct and every high street charity shop gets a 80% reduction on their business rates, which amounts to a significant financial loss to the local authority. This makes it difficult for non-charity shops to make a living as they can't compete with the lower prices.

I don't see how the sex of a church leader affects your life, so that's irrelevent.

I don't see how your comments 'on a global level' impact on your life so I'm not going to address those.

I think you will find that the biggest persecutor of homosexuals is Islam not Christianity. And FGM is also an issue in some African countries

@Smallmercies You believe they still burn people at the stake?

I did say I had beef with all faiths... But you cannot deny that it is the Christian establishment which is enthusiastically persecuting homosexuals in much of Africa. 'Someone else is doing it too' is not a defence - two wrongs do not make a right.

In terms of abortion and protests - if you want to object to abortion law, write to your MP. Walk the streets. Organise a demonstration in Westminster. But standing outside clinics where vulnerable women make difficult choices, showing faked pictures of aborted foetusus, handing out leaflets full of outright lies - that is not legitimate or peaceful protest. If these anti abortion protesters had just always limited themselves to silent prayer vigils, they would probably still be allowed to do that, but they got aggressive. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

As a woman, abortion law really, really matters to me. What is happening in the US is terrifying, and I have family there. It is a form of Christianity that is driving this and there is support over here for that kind of extreme position. That's enough for me to have beef.

Where do you stand on male headship?

@pointythings Where do you stand on male headship?

Why does my opinion matter?

You've made it abundently clear that you hate organised religion so we have no common ground for any discussion.

Hate is the wrong word. 'Disapprove of' would capture it better.

And I'm 100% in favour of individual faith and faith being practised in families. I run a group for family members of people in addiction. One of our members has an adult DC who has just found sobriety and stability through finding Jesus. And I think that is fully wonderful.

All I want is for freedom of religion to include freedom from religion for those of us who have none. That shouldn't be a lot to ask.

All I want is for freedom of religion to include freedom from religion for those of us who have none. That shouldn't be a lot to ask.

Then apply yourself to get a change in the law. We live in a democracy not a Police State (but then if we lived in a Police Stare there would be no religion anyway )🙄

And why does my opinion on church "headship" interest you? You don't believe in anything, so how is the way we "Godbotherers" organise our religions of any relevence ?🤔

The notion of male headship interests me because as a feminist, I see it as an institutionalised method by which women can more easily be oppressed. You see it on the Relationship boards frequently: women who are in deeply abusive marriages but dare not leave because they know they will be vilified by their church and their family for daring to divorce. The practice of male headship is neutral in theory because if a woman consents to it, one hopes she knows what she is getting into. However, if the relationship goes wrong, it adds a layer to the barriers that already exist for women needing to leave an abusive situation. It is a concept that teaches women that the male is always in charge simply by virtue of his being male. It is ultimately not about 'equal but different' because in practice, it does not work that way (any more than it worked in the Apartheid regime).

Religious practices like this have an impact outside the faith because when it goes wrong, there's involvement for the police, healthcare and social services. Teaching women that they need a man in their life and that they need to be dependent impacts everyone.

Women need to learn to be independent. Men need to learn to respect women's independence. We've got a long way to go, and fundamentalist religious practice is one of the barriers standing in the way of progress all over the world.

And how does it impact me? Well, I had an abusive husband. I have family members all over the world who have been impacted, so your narrow 'well, you live in the UK and so it shouldn't matter to you' focus is just plain ridiculous.

Also don't accuse me of not believing in anything. I don't believe in God. I believe in many other things.

@pointythings You see it on the Relationship boards frequently: women who are in deeply abusive marriages but dare not leave because they know they will be vilified by their church and their family for daring to divorce.

Well I must have been asleep at the wheel because I haven't seen it.

It is ultimately not about 'equal but different' because in practice, it does not work that way

I don't think I said that. What I said was men and women are equal but not interchangeable.

Women need to learn to be independent. Men need to learn to respect women's independence
No argument there.

I would go so far as to say that no women should even consider having a child unless she is financially, psychologically, mentally and physically prepared to bring up that child alone.

I don't know much about fundamentalist religions, I think they are more prevalent in USA.

so your narrow 'well, you live in the UK and so it shouldn't matter to you' focus is just plain ridiculous.
That's your biased opinion.

If you don't like mine, don't ask for it.

I believe that the sun will rise tomorrow in the NE I'm not sure if that's relevant 🙂

Can you explain why these values are "good"?

They are good because they are self protection for communities, which is good for survival of mankind in the long run. Which, surely, is why humans developed these values in the first place, millennia before Christianity came along.

Can you?

What is it you want from this thread?

"Do what thou wilt"

"The guiding principle them should be do the least harm to the fewest people"

I think many people think that this is good enough to live by, but that reasoning gave us Hiroshima and Nagasaki - the worst atrocities are justified as being for the greater good.

No. I can't. And I don't think anyone else here can either.

Societal values are pretty much that. The issue is I’m doing it because it’s the right thing versus I’m doing this because I want external life in heaven. I know I die and I’m dead. I do what’s right because it’s the right thing. Not for selfish reasons.

To satisfy a curiosity.

Brilliant summary

They did so much more recently than the year 30AD 😅

Yes I can. Humans have evolved over millennia, literally through survival of the fittest, to prioritise moral values and standards which promote the ‘group’ as this is the best way the most individuals survive in order to pro-create. Group harmony, built through mutual trust, sharing, honesty etc literally equals more and healthier humans. I believe more humans surviving and being healthy is a good thing, therefore values which promote and enable that are good.

Even lion prides have a system of co-operation and group behaviour - it’s why even elderly or injured lions can survive for some time.

hope this helps hun!

The Spartans would leave their babies out to expose them to the elements so the weakest ones would die and not burden their society. You think this is "good".