to think many grandmothers actually do not want to do childcare?

[onlytwo]

I go to a regular toddler group and there are many older women there with their grandchildren.

Been talking to them and many of them do not want to do childcare but have been pressured into by mostly their daughters but also their sons. Their children often think they are delighted to be looking after their grandchildren but often it is a huge struggle for these women (and it mostly women). They feel like they can't take a break because their children rely on them for childcare because of the cost of nurseries and general cost of living. They no longer have the same energy levels and also often have health issues.

Also grandfathers are usually not pressured into doing childcare and are rarely expected to give up their job when grandchildren come along. Their life mostly remains unchanged,

I feel the expectation of women to keep doing childcare is unfair and is coming from their own daughters. Some of the older women are frail and struggling to keep up with young children.

When talking to the mums, they say their mums love spending time with their grandchildren and looking after them. That is not what they have said to me.

Perhaps it’s due to the fact I’m rurally based, but the GF’s I know of are hardly sitting around on their rump doing nothing…

another consideration is the western world tends to have an expectation that adult children are going to set up home elsewhere for a variety of reasons.

I was in Vietnam 2 years ago and their way of life is 3 generations still in the same home. Granny cooks, granddad is still in the field, dad at work and mum looks after the kids and shuffles them between home and school 3 times a day ( including teachers who also go home at lunch and return in the afternoon). GGP’s are buried in the field to prevent the family selling what land they have left (so we were told when seeing graves out in paddocks).

would this be a life a western woman would desire? The everyday housing isn’t flash, quite poor people but they have their family (for better or worse) immediately around them doing their bit. But there is a general system as to how it works for them.

(Plus the grannies are younger too, people were surprised that I had no GC at 58.)

I honestly don't see that grandfathers are not being asked to do childcare. Certainly in my family and circle of friends grandfathers can absolutely be asked to watch the kids. My dad and (ex)FIL are very involved in their grandkids' lives as was my own grandfather who tutored all of his many grandkids in Maths and Sciences from primary school to uni age (as does my own dad with my daughter now).

I have posted this already:

Gender differences between grandparents caring for grandchildren. Even when grandfathers do help there tends to be a divide:

Overall, grandmothers were more likely to report caring and helping activities (e.g., cooking, caring when sick, helping with homework, and collecting them from school) than grandfathers, even when they coresided.
https://www.demographic-research.org/volumes/vol43/53/43-53.pdf

Yes in your your own family grandfathers may be asked but the overall trend is this burden falls more on grandmothers.

@onlytwo

I still don't understand your stance.

I believe grandparents should help - if they are able, and instead of handwringing over grandmothers doing too much we should be pushing grandfathers to do more.

Not encouraging and normalising a culture where it is fine to abandon your adult children when they need you and destroying all feelings of community.
Humans have evolved to thrive with each other helping those who need it infants, the elderly, the disabled and those who need more support - that includes young families.

Deconstructing that entire system and forcing people to pay for care at any level because some men - who are able - don't do enough is not the answer, insisting they do more and participate in community is.

The whole transactional nature of care and community at the moment is grim. It is a capitalistic trick - community fights capitalism.

I believe grandparents should help - if they are able, and instead of handwringing over grandmothers doing too much we should be pushing grandfathers to do more.

How will grandfathers do more when mostly women keep running to their mothers to do the childcare? Excuses are being used as grandfathers still work, they don't know what to do, they were born in the 1920s.

Women are justifying why they ask their mothers to the childcare and not their father.

Women getting annoyed with their mother because she got help needs to stop.

We do need recognise the burden on grandmothers that does not mostly exist for grandfathers.

@onlytwo I couldn't disagree with you more.

Grandparents need to stop pulling up the ladder - they chose to have children, that's life long and they should always help them when they are able to.
Families are right to be annoyed with their parents for taking advantage of care offered by their community when they needed it then refusing to contribute to their family community when they are needed.

"I've had my kids I'm done" is BS your children are your children for life - why would you not help them just because they are 30 - even if it is hard. My 3 year old is hard sometimes, I don't not help her because it's hard. I help her because I am her mother and I love her - this won't magically stop when she is 25.

Equally as my parents and grandparents age I will help them because I love them and it is the right thing to do - to help the people that you love when you are able regardless of their age.

Life is give and take and when one group decides to not contribute it has a huge knock on effect for everyone else.

The burden of caring exists in society - and instead of moaning that its women who do it all and turning everything into a transaction we should encourage and insist men step up more and take part in their communities rather than encouraging women to refuse to help.

I am so sick of how selfish this world is becoming.

Help people you love should not be a controversial statement.

What a crock of shit.

People rear the children they produce to adulthood. After that the now-adult offspring are responsible for managing their own lives.

There’s no reason people can’t work and save money in advance of parenthood, to cover childcare costs.

As a grandparent who does help, I’d say to you wait until your 60’s/70’s before you declare that grandparents should provide unlimited childcare. Wait and see how tiring looking after babies and children is then, compared to when you’re young.

@cramptramp please point out where I said that grandparents should provide unlimited childcare?

Oh that's right I didn't! :)

I said grandparents should help when they are able to.

@TheHerboriste it's ok to admit you are selfish.

Helping your adult children when you are able to is the right thing to do.

You say that your three year old is “hard” at 30. How much harder would it be when you’re pushing 70? Turning a blind eye to one’s elderly mother struggling with a toddler is enormously more selfish than that grandmother saying “I’m very sorry. I’d love to help out but it’s just too exhausting for me now”.

@MmeChoufleur To be honest I don't actually think she is hard - it was more of a hypothetical example a lot of people can relate to. E.g toddlers can be hard but we love and care for them regardless.

You are missing the huge caveat of my response is covered by IF THEY ARE ABLE TO as I stated several times.

If at 70 you are too exhausted by toddlers to help then you are obviously not able to help so therefore not selfish. If you work and therefore can't help, not selfish, or if you live far away or are sick or disabled or any other number of reasons to be unable to help then that's just life - and not selfish. If you choose not to help because "you have done your bit" that is purely selfish and I can't find any way to reconcile it.

My parents are barely 60 and have just walked the Camino de Santiago so I am not concerned with their ability to "keep up". They also don't work any more and live a 10 minute walk for me - it is a similar story for my in laws. They all love to help, and ask to have the kids MORE than we even need them to so I am in no way bitter - I live on easy street, and I believe the reason many families find it SO hard at the moment is the deconstruction of community and we should not encourage that it costs us all way too much personally as well as financially.

My own grandparents are in their 80s and I help them several times a week, shopping, cleaning, cooking etc. Because I love them and it is the right thing to do - It is "hard" to find the time because I have young children and I work FT and I am busy but I do it because I believe in community, in doing hard things for people you love and I am not selfish.

Far from pulling up the ladder, government statistics show that more than double the number of grandparents are doing childcare then we're a generation ago. I don't have the link to hand but it's approaching 2.5 times as many.
Add that this generation of grandparents is often nearly ten years older than their own parents were when they became grandparents, GPs doing childcare are nearly 2.5 times as numerous, and with considerably less physical energy for the job, than the generation above them.

https://www.sunlife.co.uk/press-office/news/grandparents-childcare-salary/

It seems grandparents provide £96 billion a year in childcare.

@Blossomtoes Good! As they should!

@saraclara that is certainly my experience, and my friends its good to know the data backs it up - anecdotally I don't know anyone in person who doesn't have some form of grandparent support. Or anyone whose parents don't jump at the chance to pitch in and help, It's only online I see this selfish attitude of "I've done my time" repeated and normalised and I am always happy to push back against it and challenge it. We should help our communities when we can - all of us.

I 100% agree with you, as humans we help each other, its not a selfish view of “each to their own” and your children do not stop being your children when they reach adulthood, there is no magical pair of scissors that breaks that when children are grown. Do we help other adults in need if someone were to ask? I like to think so. I will raise my children to be independent adults, but never, ever will I cut them off and refuse my help just because they are adults. I will always be there, whenever is needed. If i feel taken advantage of ever or can foresee something becoming too much I will say, not take on the “burden” and then moan about it.

Why should they? My bloke’s grandchildren live 100 miles away from their nearest grandparent, are you seriously suggesting it’s reasonable that they should make a minimum 200 mile round trip to provide childcare?

@Blossomtoes No as I said in a previous comment if you live far away or have other circumstances that mean you are unable to help then that's just life, but if you are able to help you should because your children are your children for life. They don't magically wake up at 18 not needing you anymore.
Grandparents should help their adult children if they are able because they love them and it is the right thing to do - to help the people that you love when you are able regardless of their age.
If you choose not to help because "you have done your bit" that is purely selfish and I can't find any way to reconcile it.

And we wonder why young women are so reluctant to have children. This definitely feels like pulling the ladder up behind you.

Indeed. My grandfather tutored me in maths twice a week in primary, he also taught me carpentry and other woodworking and welding; and how to plan times and trips, executive function type things. He was WW2 vet and a Surveyor, so he was very practical but brainy. It helped that we lived with them for a few years.

I think people need to ask their elders to help with specific things, not just with everyday.

I agree, but I was under no illusions with my parents.

My dad didn't really want children and he basically let us know how hard it was raising me and my brother.
From being late teens he'd say to me 'Don't bring me any babies to look after' 😳
And they have been true to their word.
They only have 1 grandchild. My DD is 7.
They had her one day a week for about 6 months when I went back to work which was probably quite a lot for them. They had her overnight one time, which was 5 and a half years ago and never to be repeated.
There was a time when we only saw them once every 3 weeks for a couple of hours, but they now do temporarily 1 pick up of an hour and a half as I commute further for work now.

My mum is amazing with kids and would do more but she doesn't drive and they both are still quite young acting and healthy and enjoy their retirement and holidays.
It did used to upset me and when I saw friends parents having their grandchildren every day but at the same time I thought it was too much.

My MIL was the opposite, she wanted to have DD loads but she's a difficult person in other ways so we kept a bit of distance and now she looks after her daughter's DS more.

People definitely should not expect parents to look after their kids!
Mine were just upfront with me about not wanting to do it.
I only have 1 so I reckon I'm unlikely to be a grandma but I would be up for 1 - 2 days a week childcare at the most if the time ever comes..I like my free time.

So when does that generation get a break?

They care for their own kids (usually while working). They continue to work full time, then their own kids want them to look after their kids, and their own elderly parents are probably needing support too. So their retirement is spent looking after both generations.

Then, after looking after their multiple grandchildren over a period of years, they're exhausted and too old or ill to actually enjoy doing the things they expected to do in retirement.

Who's selfish exactly? Them, or their kids who use them to save money on childcare?

People tend to tire more easily as they get older, and many grandparents have health problems.

@saraclara I feel like you are glossing over my comments to read your own narrative, but I will pretend you are being earnest.

I already mentioned previously I already help looking after my own elderly great grandparents because I am part of a community, this helps my parents - and my in laws get more free time. If we all work together as a community there is plenty of time for breaks for everyone, ongoing and no one ends up burnt out, physically, emotionally or financially.

My generation is likely to retire even later, and care for even more elderly relatives. It doesn't mean I won't help my own community, children and the elderly as much as I am able.

Saying no to helping your own children who you supposedly love just because you have "done your parenting" is just cruel.

I could never ever watch on seeing my children struggle, knowing I could help in anyway and just decide not to so I can have a free Tuesday. Yuck.