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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To not understand how people fund their lives and feel a bit jealous?

614 replies

Travelenthusiast · 28/04/2025 08:23

Just that really. Mid-30s and we have what I have always seen as a healthy income of £180k per annum (obviously been lower when we were younger and increased over time), and had some family help - about £50k to buy our first house several years ago.

And i’m not complaining about our quality of life- I know we are lucky and can afford a good holiday every year, and a more expensive/ luxury holiday occasionally. DS does a few extra-curricular activities, we don’t have to worry about the food shop total (we aren't extravagant at all) and can afford to eat out a few times a month etc. And I know we are lucky as I grew up in a poor family and understand the stress and implications.

But we have a very modest 3-bed house (with a big mortgage), our car is ten years old and there’s no way we could replace it, we can rarely afford to replace clothes and shoes for us (of course do for DS), days out are thought through to reduce cost, would make pack lunches to take into work and don’t buy shop coffees, we could not afford private school, and often we cut out the eating out to add to savings instead- basically £ is not abundant. And we are relatively careful financially and not big spenders generally. None of this is me saying our life is bad- I know we are really luckily, but just trying to give an idea of limitations / life.

We do live in SE commuter belt (not london) where everything is very expensive.

But we are surrounded by families who have so much more, so apparently effortlessly. We are genuinely one of the only local families without a 4x4 (i know cry me a river 🤣). How do others have it all and have the big house, the new car, endless holidays, SAHM often, the new clothes, meals out, lots of savings? Is it simply that they earn much more? I know we are lucky but I just don’t understand how so many can be so wealthy? Could most of our network really have a household income over £200k?!

OP posts:
InPraiseOfIdleness · 02/05/2025 10:15

Housebuyingfamily · 01/05/2025 21:14

Indeed, thanks for trying @InPraiseOfIdleness but I fear it’s a bit like trying to explain architecture to a dog

This sums is up very well! A dog wearing earplugs and singing “lalalalaa can’t hear you!” 😆

Blondeshavemorefun · 02/05/2025 14:31

I suggest if car needs replacing to not go to the Maldives and spend £15k

that will help car budget

InPraiseOfIdleness · 02/05/2025 17:33

Unthinkablebuttrue · 01/05/2025 22:04

Wow, who are you?! Really sobering facts there. And when I take this info in conjunction with that if another poster who talked about hidden untaxable income said , it really made me think. It kind of looks like a reverse if everything I ever held to be true: going to uni will just saddle you with debt and lock you in a taxable job, whereas getting a trade means you earn quicker, with no debt, and are beyond the taxman's reaches...

And you’re absolutely right in your assessment. That is the corrosive effect on ambition and hard work that these distortions have. The social contract requires that these higher earners will pay a higher percentage of their income in tax than low or average earners (I’ve never met one yet who resents doing so) but also that there is a financial reward for them also in terms of increased lifestyle. If you erode that to the point where it’s negligible or even negative - or young people starting out on the road see that it is in doubt that even if they study hard and do all of these extra qualifications and take on the extra debt that involves and work the crazy hours for promotions they may not end up any better off after all as a result - then it’s not surprising that many people are rethinking that work/ life balance and declining promotions, cutting working hours, moving abroad, or simply deciding not to make that extra effort at all.

But if enough people do that then who’s going to pay the bills? We have an extremely unstable tax system because it is so redistributive it’s become extremely reliant on a very small percentage of higher PAYE earners. As others have pointed out, due to lax enforcement those working in trades pay nowhere near what they should; tax evasion from such people is rife. The actually wealthy who have capital should pay much more but it’s simply not feasible to do without international cooperation. So what happens? Everyone gets poorer, skills shortages, brain drain.

It’s particularly damaging to the UK economy to have this happening at this level because as you say it undermines all the messages from schools and parents telling their children to work and study hard and then rewards will come because teenagers and young adults aren’t stupid and they can see that this is no longer the case.

It is also, though, as I said, having a similar effect around the £50-£80k income bracket due to the fiscal drag on the higher rate tax threshold (which would be over £120k now if uprated with inflation) and the withdrawal of child benefit.

And a similar impact for those provided with universal credit who have a 55% taper rate, alongside 20% income tax if they work a sufficient amount.

It should be obvious to anybody with even a basic understanding of human psychology why this would strangle an economy and remove all motivation from people to work more, if the benefit to their own family is reduced to such a low level (or even negative in some cases!).

HMRC data shows bunching of earnings just below each threshold so the economic effect of these policies is clear and indisputable.

The cliff-edges have to go for us to have a chance of economic recovery. A sensible Government would take the very obvious steps that are within their power to take tomorrow and see the effect within months. We do need infrastructure projects etc but these will take many years and in some cases decades to have an effect and the results are not fully within Government control. Tax and benefits policy is, and they can change this overnight.

A Government that genuinely wanted growth would immediately cut the universal credit taper rate to 40%, make childcare funding universal again, make child benefit universal again, and scrap the withdrawal of the personal allowance. Robust independent economic research has shown that these measures would increase overall tax revenue within a short period of time, cut administration costs, reduce the gender pay gap, increase economic participation, increase growth, increase productivity, reduce skills shortages (and therefore also reduce the need for immigration) and cut the welfare bill.

The question that voters should be asking of the Government is why they are not doing this?

Kitte321 · 02/05/2025 17:44

InPraiseOfIdleness · 02/05/2025 17:33

And you’re absolutely right in your assessment. That is the corrosive effect on ambition and hard work that these distortions have. The social contract requires that these higher earners will pay a higher percentage of their income in tax than low or average earners (I’ve never met one yet who resents doing so) but also that there is a financial reward for them also in terms of increased lifestyle. If you erode that to the point where it’s negligible or even negative - or young people starting out on the road see that it is in doubt that even if they study hard and do all of these extra qualifications and take on the extra debt that involves and work the crazy hours for promotions they may not end up any better off after all as a result - then it’s not surprising that many people are rethinking that work/ life balance and declining promotions, cutting working hours, moving abroad, or simply deciding not to make that extra effort at all.

But if enough people do that then who’s going to pay the bills? We have an extremely unstable tax system because it is so redistributive it’s become extremely reliant on a very small percentage of higher PAYE earners. As others have pointed out, due to lax enforcement those working in trades pay nowhere near what they should; tax evasion from such people is rife. The actually wealthy who have capital should pay much more but it’s simply not feasible to do without international cooperation. So what happens? Everyone gets poorer, skills shortages, brain drain.

It’s particularly damaging to the UK economy to have this happening at this level because as you say it undermines all the messages from schools and parents telling their children to work and study hard and then rewards will come because teenagers and young adults aren’t stupid and they can see that this is no longer the case.

It is also, though, as I said, having a similar effect around the £50-£80k income bracket due to the fiscal drag on the higher rate tax threshold (which would be over £120k now if uprated with inflation) and the withdrawal of child benefit.

And a similar impact for those provided with universal credit who have a 55% taper rate, alongside 20% income tax if they work a sufficient amount.

It should be obvious to anybody with even a basic understanding of human psychology why this would strangle an economy and remove all motivation from people to work more, if the benefit to their own family is reduced to such a low level (or even negative in some cases!).

HMRC data shows bunching of earnings just below each threshold so the economic effect of these policies is clear and indisputable.

The cliff-edges have to go for us to have a chance of economic recovery. A sensible Government would take the very obvious steps that are within their power to take tomorrow and see the effect within months. We do need infrastructure projects etc but these will take many years and in some cases decades to have an effect and the results are not fully within Government control. Tax and benefits policy is, and they can change this overnight.

A Government that genuinely wanted growth would immediately cut the universal credit taper rate to 40%, make childcare funding universal again, make child benefit universal again, and scrap the withdrawal of the personal allowance. Robust independent economic research has shown that these measures would increase overall tax revenue within a short period of time, cut administration costs, reduce the gender pay gap, increase economic participation, increase growth, increase productivity, reduce skills shortages (and therefore also reduce the need for immigration) and cut the welfare bill.

The question that voters should be asking of the Government is why they are not doing this?

I totally agree, but why is no party offering a bold plan like this? We seem locked in a cycle of thinking that increasing the tax burden on higher earners and businesses is the only way to increase revenues.

InPraiseOfIdleness · 02/05/2025 17:51

And obviously, like the Governments in every other developed country I’m aware of, levying tax on a household unit basis (i.e. if you have an adult child living with you at home they are taxed separately to you as a different “unit”, or in an HMO of course everyone is taxed separately, but adults and their dependents who live together pay tax based on their total earnings. To ensure that people can maintain financial independence from partners if they wish the “default” system would be that the household allowances/ thresholds are split equally between the adults in the household unit, but they can choose to transfer them between them if they wish to do so/ keep their finances separate. But they shouldn’t get an extra 50% tax free/ be able to earn twice as much as a household before they pay higher tax rates just because there are more adults in the household).

There should also be - like in every other developed country I’m aware of - an additional tax free allowance for each child in the household, which again should be transferrable between couples if they so wish but divided equally by default. This recognises the additional costs involved in raising children).

It’s clearly a nonsense to have benefits determined on a household basis and taxes levied on an individual basis. There is literally no a single other country in the world that does this, for obvious reasons, because it creates exactly the distortions that I’ve mentioned, which create perverse incentives discouraging work and reduce social mobility and growth and productivity.

This is all very straightforward and obvious and we don’t have to come up with a new system from scratch because every other developed country has a more sensible system than ours so we can just copy and paste one of theirs, pretty much. We know - and economic research has shown unequivocally - that this is one of the main reasons that our productivity and living standards and PPP have fallen further and further behind what used to be our comparator countries, and it’s simple to fix.

Nothing will improve substantially until this is addressed and it’s really not that hard to do.

So why isn’t it happening? Why aren’t the electorate asking the politicians to do it?

Back to the large grey animal with the big ears and trunk and oversized bottom. He’s been ignored for so long now I think he might be feeling quite rejected so I might try and give him a hug to convince him that he isn’t invisible, that some of us do see him, and notice when he’s spraying water all over us. Poor thing.

InPraiseOfIdleness · 02/05/2025 18:05

Kitte321 · 02/05/2025 17:44

I totally agree, but why is no party offering a bold plan like this? We seem locked in a cycle of thinking that increasing the tax burden on higher earners and businesses is the only way to increase revenues.

Political optics. Ideology. One side don’t want to be seen “giving tax cuts to the rich”. The other side don’t want to be seen “being soft on benefits”.

All are concerned above all about their election prospects at the next election. They are also beholden to their funders - whether that be the unions or lobbyists in one case or companies and rich individuals in the other. And we should all be very worried about this because if they carry on putting their political interests about evidence-based policy that will finally improve living standards for people in the UK then due to the frustration at falling living standards at all levels of society we will become vulnerable to populism as is being seen in several European countries and the US. And that - i.e. people being stupid enough to think that totally devoid of any economic policy whatsoever chancers and opportunists like Reform could possibly make things better - will lead to an even faster and probably irreparable acceleration in the decline in living standards, probably past the point of no return in a very short period.

There is no evidence-based policy making, decisions are based on short-term savings in specific departments without any consideration for wider costs or economic effects or long-term impacts. It’s a totally dysfunctional political system driven by adversary, soundbites, slogans and political point-scoring, infantilising the electorate because it would be “too hard” to tell them the truth, rather than co-operation, agreement on long-term policy plans (which you see far more of in systems with proportional representation where negotiation and discussion is a necessity). It’s very depressing that I am sure Reeves, Starmer and Hunt and Sunak were all well aware that they needed to take the measures I’ve set out but didn’t because the demands in their political parties and election prospects were deemed to be more important than the living standards of the citizens of the UK and actually acting with integrity.

There can be no rise in living standards that isn’t immediately swallowed up by inflation without a rise in productivity. This is an economic fact. The only way there will be a rise in productivity is to address the tax system and some of the other issues I laid out in my post yesterday regarding redirecting public spending to education, fixing our trading relationships, changing our energy pricing policies, and fixing the broken healthcare and pensions systems that are bleeding the country dry etc. Fundamentally we must redirect a large amount of public spending from the old to the young for there to be any kind of future here and there is not much time left now to turn it around.

The clock is ticking and the electorate need to get a grip, but sadly daily my hope in this happening in time gets smaller and smaller.

If only even basic economics was taught at school. I think the complete absence of such an essential subject from the national curriculum is entirely deliberate because an ignorant population is far easier to manipulate.

InPraiseOfIdleness · 02/05/2025 18:07

InPraiseOfIdleness · 01/05/2025 10:42

I would:

  1. Reform the tax system so that taxes are levied on a household unit basis like in pretty much every other developed country, reduce the universal credit taper rate to 40%, and make child benefit and childcare funding universal again. These measures would increase economic growth, increase overall tax revenue and reduce skills shortages. I would also strengthen our rules around transfer pricing to ensure that it is more difficult for companies to transfer revenues from UK sales to other lower tax jurisdictions. Implement ID cards to stamp out the black economy and tax evasion so that it is illegal for transactions to take place without a registered tax number being provided.

  2. Replace the NHS with the kind of model used in France of Germany. For a very similar percentage of GDP these services have far superior outcomes and patient care. Subsume social care into the NHS service and raise income tax to fund this (the growth generated by 1) would be sufficient to do this in time.

  3. Reform the UK’s energy pricing model so that it is not based on the price of Gas. Uncapped energy costs for businesses that are not at all representative of production costs are driving inflation and reducing output across the economy.

  4. Reduce the focus on achieving net zero in a short timespan and redirect some of the money being spent on that to climate mitigation measures such as increased flood defences and investment into carbon capture technology. Implement proper strategies for food security, water security e.g. building more reservoirs. It’s utter negligence not to have done this.

  5. Implement a proper industrial strategy with Government-backed loans for startup businesses, tax breaks for small businesses, investment into key technologies and areas where the UK already has significant strengths e.g. pharmaceuticals, tech, the arts, defence. Create business clusters. Strength rules to prevent large businesses being able to take over challenger startups. Have a unified source of compliance/ export support for small businesses in different sectors that could manage this administration for them to make it more viable for them to export if lacking internal expertise or resources to navigate the system.

  6. Deal with the UK’s self-imposed trade barriers that are costing us 4% GDP per year and compounding. As a minimum, rejoin the single market and customs union as a matter of urgency.

  7. Total reform of the dire UK education system. Half class sizes over time - education must be the number one focus of our public spending if this country is going to have any future. Far fewer people should go to university, perhaps 15-20%. This should be funded by grants not loans as it benefits everyone. Re-establish technical colleges with strong links to businesses and meaningful apprenticeships leading to qualifications and proper career routes similar to the system in Germany. Give children more options to focus on their specific talents/ interests with schools specialising in different areas while still doing core subjects from age 15 onwards. Implement a proper regulator to replace OFSTED which prosecutes Local Authorities itself for illegal behaviour rather than leaving it to individual parents to enforce the law through tribunals, and levies fines of sufficient magnitude on Local Authorities to disincentive illegal behaviour denying children access to education. Establish sufficient schools places for children with different needs so that all can learn properly. Make adult learning and retraining available again and highly subsidised if not free.

  8. Reform our pension system, which is simply unsustainable as it stands. Australia had similar problems and dealt with them a couple of decades ago. We should gradually move towards something more comparable to their system for state pensions which is fiscally sustainable. We also need to address the public sector pensions which are held off balance sheet (!) and literally unpayable, with liabilities running into trillions of pounds with an ageing population and declining birth rates. Some realism about what is realistically payable will have to be accepted although many will find this unpalatable.

  9. On housing I would make it much easier for people to purchase a plot of land and self-build, with Government security making it viable for mortgage lenders to lend on such projects and implement simple planning procedures for self-building and make VAT reclaimable on the building materials/ costs for the individual who is building a property to inhabit as their main residence. This would make housing cheaper because the profits of the big building companies would be removed (approximately 20% of the cost of new builds) and would hugely improve build quality.

All of this is possible and affordable in an economy if you put a rational tax system and industrial strategy in place that will create growth. Not a chance of that happening in the UK though.

@Kitte321 this is what I think a sensible plan to start to turn things around would look like, as I posted yesterday.

InPraiseOfIdleness · 02/05/2025 18:07

InPraiseOfIdleness · 01/05/2025 11:31

I forgot for point 1), also of course the need to remove the withdrawal of the personal allowance. I also think that (like in France and many other countries) there should be an additional tax-free allowance added for each child in a household unit. Again, this will increase economic participation, increase growth, lower the welfare bill, and decrease child poverty and reduce the gender paygap and poverty of women later in life so will more than pay for itself.

I suppose my frustration is really that economic debate becomes entangled with polarised politics and therefore people adopt ever more extreme positions and become so entrenched because of their (understandable) anger at their own living standards declining that they are susceptible to politicians who are selling them fake solutions with slogans that don’t stand up to the slightest economic scrutiny. Turning the UK economy around requires an integrated programme of change with clear policy objectives like I’ve set out in my vision of how it could be achieved, with some measures that would cut unaffordable expenditure, some measures that would cost money but in vital areas where the return on that money would be many times what we spend, and most importantly measures that will increase economic growth.

Nobody minds if their tax goes up 3% if their real-terms income has gone up 10%. The first priority therefore has to be generating growth, creating the conditions where that will happen. All political parties in the UK claim this is what they want to do yet not one has even proposed the very obvious measures that would achieve this despite multiple economists having made it crystal clear to them the first steps that are required in order to do so. Reeves said pre-election that growth was her main priority, yet she has taken measures instead that obviously would have the opposite effect. It’s very disappointing as I thought with her background she might do far better, but sadly yet again we seem to have a Government captured by ideology (just like the last lot) rather than having the integrity to make decisions based on economic reality and what will actually benefit the people who live in the UK.

I wish the population would question why this is the case. These people who claim to be acting in their interests are not doing so. They are trying to create electoral advantage and stay in power by polarising opinion and creating social division, which again undermines any opportunity for growth. A disintegrating society full of resentment and hate and no concept of collective good and social conscience is never going to result in any outcome other than decline and never has, anywhere in the world at any point in history.

The only way out of this situation would be for people to be objective, take a step back, realise that everyone has been screwed over, and instead of taking that (justified) anger out on each other, press the politicians to implement evidence-based policies that will actually improve the situation.

I become more pessimistic daily that the UK population will actually do so, unfortunately, and so the decline continues.

@Kitte321

InPraiseOfIdleness · 02/05/2025 18:25

It is, I’m afraid, like shouting into the wind or, I suppose, similar to yelling into the stream of water squirted at you from the trunk of a large, grey, unacknowledged and rejected animal with some understandable attachment issues and a complex about the size of his ears.

Samslaundry · 03/05/2025 10:26

Lauren1983 · 01/05/2025 21:37

Just to be clear I am not disagreeing with most of the points InPraiseOfIdleness has said. This was the post I originally responded to. All I stated was our 30k income is accurate and doesn't include top ups/social housing/rent paid/any form of UC and that plenty of households do get by on this sort of income or indeed less.

I am not commenting on tax levels, tapers etc.

Same I do think that poster has some issues tbh theres not enough time in the day to be typing up repetitive essays on here.
I only came on here to say to say my income is 35k and I get no benefits except child benefit. Plus most stories of families getting "thousands in benefits" there is more to the story that gets conveniently left out like multiple disabled children.

Then to be hit with ten essays about tax levels and accusing me of hating disabled children 😂

InPraiseOfIdleness · 03/05/2025 15:57

Samslaundry · 03/05/2025 10:26

Same I do think that poster has some issues tbh theres not enough time in the day to be typing up repetitive essays on here.
I only came on here to say to say my income is 35k and I get no benefits except child benefit. Plus most stories of families getting "thousands in benefits" there is more to the story that gets conveniently left out like multiple disabled children.

Then to be hit with ten essays about tax levels and accusing me of hating disabled children 😂

The entire point is that comparison of incomes without considering the relevant tax and benefits rates are meaningless, as the numbers I posted demonstrated. Other people clearly didn’t decide that objective reality is irrelevant, as you have, and dismiss anything longer than a few paragraphs as “an essay” (have you ever written one of those? I presume not if you think that’s what they look like).

As you know, you did make unpleasant and completely irrelevant comments about disabled children which had nothing to do with the thread. I reposted some of these twice when you denied doing so. I see that subsequently somebody reported some of your comments because some of them have now been deleted.

Perhaps instead of making nasty comments about other posters, and swearing at them repeatedly, you could try a little rational thought.

Samslaundry · 03/05/2025 16:15

InPraiseOfIdleness · 03/05/2025 15:57

The entire point is that comparison of incomes without considering the relevant tax and benefits rates are meaningless, as the numbers I posted demonstrated. Other people clearly didn’t decide that objective reality is irrelevant, as you have, and dismiss anything longer than a few paragraphs as “an essay” (have you ever written one of those? I presume not if you think that’s what they look like).

As you know, you did make unpleasant and completely irrelevant comments about disabled children which had nothing to do with the thread. I reposted some of these twice when you denied doing so. I see that subsequently somebody reported some of your comments because some of them have now been deleted.

Perhaps instead of making nasty comments about other posters, and swearing at them repeatedly, you could try a little rational thought.

Edited

I didn't say anything unpleasant about disabled children. Merely pointed out that often when you hear stories of families recieving thousands in benefits it's because they have multiple disabled children. Which isn't unpleasant it's the truth.

What is unpleasant is using families with disabled children in to push your false narrative that someone on 160k is worse off than someone on 30k. Which i appreciate you didn't do but my original comment was never aimed at you, yes ive seen people on other threads use one family with disabled children to try and say everyone on under 50k gets loads of "top up benefits"

Also I never said any of your comments were horseshit my original comment wasn't aimed at you so I'm not sure why you took it personally and have dedicated so many long irrelevant posts to me? Like I said I only came on here to say with 35k income we get no benefits except child benefit.

InPraiseOfIdleness · 04/05/2025 11:50

Samslaundry · 03/05/2025 16:15

I didn't say anything unpleasant about disabled children. Merely pointed out that often when you hear stories of families recieving thousands in benefits it's because they have multiple disabled children. Which isn't unpleasant it's the truth.

What is unpleasant is using families with disabled children in to push your false narrative that someone on 160k is worse off than someone on 30k. Which i appreciate you didn't do but my original comment was never aimed at you, yes ive seen people on other threads use one family with disabled children to try and say everyone on under 50k gets loads of "top up benefits"

Also I never said any of your comments were horseshit my original comment wasn't aimed at you so I'm not sure why you took it personally and have dedicated so many long irrelevant posts to me? Like I said I only came on here to say with 35k income we get no benefits except child benefit.

“to push your false narrative… which I appreciate you didn’t”

Quite. My “false narrative” which you admit doesn’t exist. Your posts become increasingly comical and nonsensical.

Everybody saw what you wrote, trying to turn stir up the current hornets nest of spite against disabled people when it had nothing to do with the thread or any of the calculations I provided.

Enough now.

Mustreadabook · 07/09/2025 20:22

Being a bit older would help. Then buy your house 10 years or more earlier before the prices went up.

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