To not understand how people fund their lives and feel a bit jealous?

[Travelenthusiast]

Just that really. Mid-30s and we have what I have always seen as a healthy income of £180k per annum (obviously been lower when we were younger and increased over time), and had some family help - about £50k to buy our first house several years ago.

And i’m not complaining about our quality of life- I know we are lucky and can afford a good holiday every year, and a more expensive/ luxury holiday occasionally. DS does a few extra-curricular activities, we don’t have to worry about the food shop total (we aren't extravagant at all) and can afford to eat out a few times a month etc. And I know we are lucky as I grew up in a poor family and understand the stress and implications.

But we have a very modest 3-bed house (with a big mortgage), our car is ten years old and there’s no way we could replace it, we can rarely afford to replace clothes and shoes for us (of course do for DS), days out are thought through to reduce cost, would make pack lunches to take into work and don’t buy shop coffees, we could not afford private school, and often we cut out the eating out to add to savings instead- basically £ is not abundant. And we are relatively careful financially and not big spenders generally. None of this is me saying our life is bad- I know we are really luckily, but just trying to give an idea of limitations / life.

We do live in SE commuter belt (not london) where everything is very expensive.

But we are surrounded by families who have so much more, so apparently effortlessly. We are genuinely one of the only local families without a 4x4 (i know cry me a river 🤣). How do others have it all and have the big house, the new car, endless holidays, SAHM often, the new clothes, meals out, lots of savings? Is it simply that they earn much more? I know we are lucky but I just don’t understand how so many can be so wealthy? Could most of our network really have a household income over £200k?!

They provided their own income as proof. The figures posted are not incorrect but they are based on specific examples. The couple on minimum wage getting £2,262 a month is not representative of most low income households but people will read it and it will confirm the idea that low income households get high top ups to put their incomes on par with higher earners.

So skip the holiday one year buy yourself some kit.
I live in London, income about £35k, mortgage, one kid at uni other lives on his own but I help out. Five year old car. Three pets. I’d say I’m pretty comfortable, as I got on the property ladder in the 1980s which is how I can afford to live where I do, without having a large income. I can afford a takeaway or odd meal out without worrying about it. I don’t get any benefits or free stuff or whatever. We go on holiday every other year.
Im sure some of my friends earn a lot more than me. So what? Yes they have a bigger house and their ‘oh we aren’t doing a big holiday this year’ turned out to be a week in Spain, another in France, and possibly a third in India! All I can do is smile and look forward to the photos. I even have one friend who lives in a stately home and hosts weddings there. Another had four kids in private school at once, a second home in Canada and two nannies (the wife didn’t work). I also had friends who worked very long hard hours and are living hand to mouth, decided they could only afford one child who had to share a bedroom with her grandmother for the first ten years of her life.
So get over yourself. You are doing much better than most. And there will be people doing much better than you.

Yet above I’ve proved to you that a parent supporting two young children who has £180k gross earnings is significantly worse off than a couple earning minimum wage renting a home in the same area. They will have £3,464 left after housing costs and tax to pay their living expenses such as Council tax, utilities, food etc. They also won’t have to pay for house maintenance of buildings insurance, and will have minimal childcare costs, if any. By contrast, a single parent earning £180k living in the same area who has a mortgage will have only £1,297 left after tax, housing and childcare costs (with me taking the lowest possible estimate for the latter two per the ONS data) for pay for their Council tax, utilities, food, and also the additional costs of insurance and maintenance of a mortgaged home.

I have proved, with numbers, that assertions from you and other on this thread that anybody earning such a salary is “rich”, is “taking the piss”, is “mismanaging their money if they are struggling”, or needs a “tiny violin” are misguided and simply exemplify mathematical illiteracy and a total ignorance of how redistributive the UK tax system is already.

This is why we are losing so many of our most qualified and talented young people to other countries, and why we have huge skilled shortages in many critical areas because people are either retiring early, leaving the country entirely, or cutting their working hours because it’s simply not worth working more or aspiring to promotions if the tax rates will be something between 80% and over 100% (seriously - these cliff-edges mean that at some levels if you earn more and work more hours or take a promotion, your net income goes down).

You can be angry all you want and play along with the politicians’ plans to turn people against each other, hating everyone either richer or poorer than they are personally, if you wish to. However, if you and many others like you continue to do that then UK living standards will continue to be in freefall for the foreseeable future because the only way out of that is increased productivity, and the only way to achieve that is to address the ridiculous cliff-edges in the tax system that I have raised, which exist at various levels of earnings from people claiming UC, to those being denied child benefit, to people who’ve worked to get qualifications and then worked 70 hour weeks for over a decade to work their way up and then found that they have no better living standards than those on minimum wage.

Enjoy the ever-declining living standards. The pointless responses on this thread show precisely what is wrong. The “Four Yorkshiremen” mentality isn’t going to make anybody better off. Having a go at the people who are paying the taxes which provide your services which you are nowhere near funding your own use of (even if you don’t claim benefits) isn’t going to make you better off. People aren’t going to study for years and take on tens of thousands of pounds of debt and work long hours in stressful jobs and sacrifice time with their own families to fund things for everyone else if they can never also achieve a lifestyle above that they could achieve on minimum wage, as a result of that extra effort.

The extreme people on either side of the political spectrum find economic facts unpalatable, but objective reality doesn’t care whether they like it or not. Unless the population of the UK wake up, stop attacking each other, refusing to actually look at the maths and vote for evidence-based policies that will actually work, rather than slogans and political ideology, nothing will change.

I find it so depressing that so many people, on both sides of this debate, are so keen to blame the others rather than look at the clear economic mismanagement which is staring them in the face.

How is it “not representative”? The figures I provided are factual, based on 2 x minimum wage for 40 hours per week and the current tax and NI rates.

I'm not angry, nor do I hate anyone richer or poorer than me, are you confusing me with another poster?

You've pulled some example out of your ass, who on minimum wage has that much money after housing costs? It's probably a family with ten disabled children. That's how I've seen similar posters to yourself mislead the thread into thinking everyone earning less than 50k gets bucket loads of benefits before.

Also it's not only rich people who have mortgages, I have a mortgage to pay too and benefits only help out people who rent with their housing costs.

I'm not blaming anyone for anything but admittedly I do resent being told by people earning three or even four times as much money as me that I'm somehow richer than them because I apparently get loads of benefits and fre stuff when I don't and most of these posters are talking out their ass.

Pennycrown saying "i have a mortgage" is meaningless. If you live in a cheap northern town & have no kids your mortgage might only be £500/month on a small house. If you are on a low income you may be on social rent covered by UC, typically far cheaper than the private sector.

If you've had to buy or rent a home more recently in a more expensive area because that's where your job/family childcare is, you will have paid vastly more.

Jeez, give your head a wobble. I assume you’re reasonably intelligent people to be earning that level of salary. Go back to basic figures and work your ins n outs.

Because they are for a couple who rent in one of the most expensive Cities in the World!

Do you think they would get that amount if they lived in Stoke or Swindon?

I have set out the numbers in detail so that you can see the net income.

People are mislead by gross salary figures thinking that makes someone rich with no comprehension of the huge amounts of their salaries that are deducted in tax or without considering the subsidies that they receive that those families do not. The only valid basis upon which to compare is net income after essetial expenses (housing and childcare and tax), so that is the comparison I’ve provided.

As I said, if you have any figures to refute any part of my calculations then go ahead. My point was to make clear how stupid these posters are who say “I earn 1/4 of that, what are you on about! You must be rich!”. Such comments, as my calculations demonstrate very clearly, show that these people have zero understanding of tax or economics and that many of the people they resent for earning more than them - and whom are paying for the access to state education for their children, their and their children’s NHS care, their infrastructure, policing, fire service, roads, railways, defence, AND their childcare and other child benefit etc that they don’t receive themselves - are actually poorer than them after tax, childcare and housing is paid.

Significantly poorer.

There’s only so long that people will tolerate that. The level at which you can escape that trap has been raised to such an extent that a vanishingly small percentage of people ever do so if they remain in the UK. So guess what? People choose to either 1) move somewhere else, if they are ambitious and don’t mind moving countries; 2) work fewer hours and spend more time with their families. Why would they keep working these crazy hours for career progression when it used to be that maybe the top 20% could achieve a very good lifestyle by doing so but now that will only happen if you happen to make it to the top 0.5%? Most in that top 20% bracket (who we absolutely need to be working as hard as they can because of skills shortages and to drive growth and productivity) will think they’re unlikely to get to the 0.5% and would rather spend more time with their families themselves than fund other people to do so and get nothing back in terms of increased standard of living, so they don’t; or 3) retire early, if they’re lucky enough to be a bit older and have put enough away to do so before tax rates became so insane, so they can just opt out (leaving further skills shortages).

These are economic facts. This is what is happening, hence the brain drain. Hence all doctors and nurses being from foreign countries that are significantly poorer than ours, and our trained doctors leaving for Canada or Australia or other European countries. This is why living standards here and productivity decline year on year. This is why our PPP declines every year relative to what used to be our comparator countries. Have a look at PPP in northern European countries and Australia and the US and how that has changed compared to the UK in the last 10-15 years.

No matter what level of income you have or wherever you are on the socioeconomic spectrum (I’ve been at the very lowest places at some points in life, by the way) this is in nobody’s interests. Why you would want to perpetuate this decline, especially if you have children, is beyond me. It’s spite overruling rationality or any willingness to engage with economic facts, which won’t bend to your political perspective.

As for “pulling number out of my ass”, when I’ve referenced their sources, @Samslaundry I just don’t understand why you have to be so offensive simply because somebody has tried to discuss economic facts and set it out in numbers.

Why is it necessary to be so insulting and unpleasant?

These numbers came from verifiable sources and data collated by Government bodies and you’re welcome to check them.

How on Earth can a household on £180k be poorer than one on £30k?!

You are posting facts and figures but I am posting about my actual life. Not figures from a government website. The OP of this thread has posted about a holiday they are planning for £15k. I don't begrude them having that but do you really think I could afford a holiday like that on my income?!

All true.

But I live as far south as England goes, have children (wouldn't be much point in being on Mumsnet if I didn't) and only bought my house last year.

Still Get no help paying my mortgage because benefits only help renters and actually get no benefits except child benefit. No free stuff (you have to earn less than 7k for free meals).

So is it still unreasonable to say I resent people whos incomes are four times my own telling me I'm better off than them because "i must get loads of benefits and free stuff"

I don't resent people with more money than me btw I just resent people talking shit. Important to clarify

As I've said I don't resent anyone for earning more than me. What I do resent is being told I'm better off than someone earning four times as much as me because "i must get loads of free stuff and benefits" as I've already explained is not true.

While you raise some interesting points about the state of this country and the brain drain etc. That's not what I'm discussing I merely came onto this thread to say it's bullshit that everyone earning less than 60k is better off than everyone on over 100k because they get a load of mythical free stuff and benefits. As often gets touted on these threads.

The example you gave of someone on minimum wage having £3,464 after paying their housing costs? Well all I'll say is I've seen posters on other threads make similar assertions while failing to mention it's a family with numerous disabled children getting disability benefits.
Its not representative of the majority of low earners so why bother mention it except to manipulate the thread?

“Having a go at the people who are paying the taxes which provide your services which you are nowhere near funding your own use of (even if you don’t claim benefits) isn’t going to make you better off. People aren’t going to study for years and take on tens of thousands of pounds of debt and work long hours in stressful jobs and sacrifice time with their own families to fund things for everyone else if they can never also achieve a lifestyle above that they could achieve on minimum wage, as a result of that extra effort.”

Spot on ……I’d be interested if anyone disagrees with this and why?

Wow! The fact you have actually been so entitled to type this out and think it’s acceptable to post is unreal! Take your 180k and 50k deposit for your house and give your head a shake. I would 100% ask for this to be removed because it is extremely embarrassing for you 🤡

Well maybe all these high earners should give up their jobs if they have a minimum wage lifestyle? I am not being goady but if people are genuinely breaking their backs in extremely stressful jobs purely to pay the state they should stop.

We are low income. We live in a small 2 bedroom house and don't even have a back garden. Our car is 13 years old. We don't have holidays. I rarely buy new clothes etc etc BUT we aren't in debt, we eat out a couple of times (only pub grub) we have several streaming subscriptions, I don't particularly budget on food.

If there are people on £180k looking at my list in envy as they can only dream of these things please give up your job and look for a minimum wage one. Your health is more important. Genuinely.

I know people will think my post is a piss take but I am being serious. We work so we can live in a little house we will own one day, so we can buy food, so we can put the heating on, so we can have a few treats. We don't work for any moral reasons. People should not be stressing themselves out purely to keep the state going out of some sort of perverse duty.

exactly. I don’t earn 180k but I am a higher rate taxpayer. I’ve never worked a 60 hour week in my life. I choose to have a tiny cheap flat instead of a big house so I’ve got more disposable income. I’m self-employed and work a 3-4 day week out of choice rather than working 5 days and earning more. I take about 10 weeks holiday a year and travel long haul several times a year, often for extended periods. Yes, I could go full time in a 100k+ role and upsize into a house but… why would I do that when I have loads of disposable income and more importantly, time and freedom?

If people genuinely believe they’d have more disposable income on minimum wage (absolutely howling at that, btw) then what’s stopping you quitting your job and getting a low-paid, stress-free, junior one? even in the country’s most expensive areas you don’t have to make expensive choices. Get a terrace instead of a detached or a flat instead of a house. State instead of private school. Don’t run 2 new cars. Have fewer kids. Absolutely zero sympathy for people who spend all their income on stuff that costs a lot then moan they haven’t got enough left over.

They are cutting their hours to part time to avoid working so hard for minimal financial benefit, or emigrating, or retiring early. That’s exactly my point.

Net result:

1. lower tax revenues, services decline because funding cuts have to be made/ national debt goes up even further and more money is spent on the interest (£100bn a year now) so more service cuts because we have to pay this from the remaining, lower tax revenues, or further cuts to benefits i.e. everyone gets poorer;

2. no money for investment in infrastructure/ education therefore we have ever decreasing productivity levels;

3. tax rates have to keep going up so very little investment to plug the enormous trade deficit exacerbated by Brexit which equals higher inflation because we import lots of essential goods like food and fuel which are priced in dollars therefore devaluation of GBP makes us even poorer but we can’t even capitalise on this through higher exports because of Brexit and now Trumpian trade barriers;

4. as a result of 3), also absolutely no incentive for anybody to start a business in the UK. No stable economic environment, no free trade access to our closest trading partners anymore, extremely high energy and facilities costs and minimal infrastructure, then any profits you make will be highly taxed;

5. resulting mass exodus of skilled young qualified professionals who could earn three times their salary with far lower taxes in other countries, and of successful entrepreneurs who create jobs, leading to skills shortages (then people moan about immigration when we have to entice people to come here to plug the gaps).

Please explain how this is sensible economic policy.

It’s an extremely different situation if you don’t have children. The problem with this system - unlike the tax systems in pretty much every other developed country - is that it doesn’t adjust tax based on whether you do. Hence the ridiculous situations outlined in my original post.

Every other developed country of whose tax systems I have some knowledge taxes incomes on a household unit basis, and provides additional, universal tax allowances if you have children. That is what is wrong here.

If that was rectified then you might find more people finding a worthwhile reward for their work even if they have children, as you do without any. If we don’t do that then we’re going to soon find ourselves with a very small number of young people, which will not bode well particularly for anybody expecting the Government to honour its promises for state pensions or the public sector pension scheme which are unfunded (not all are, but teachers, fire service, police, NHS etc all are ponzi schemes of this nature which will fall down on their face before long and literally be unpayable if the country continues to make it so financially difficult for people to provide a family with a decent life even with a professional job and what - on paper - should be an excellent salary).

And that’s aside from the fact that if we continue this brain drain then the national IQ will drop even lower than it is currently, which will make it even more unlikely that these problems will ever be fixed. At some point we’ll pass the point of no return.

How embarrassing for you that you clearly have zero understanding of the well-documented economic issue that the OP described, which multiple independent economic studies have concluded is one of the key challenges facing our country.

Like others, I really don’t understand this at all. Do you have a lot of consumer debt, or something? Very puzzling.

And I didn’t include any disabilities or disabled children in those calculations, by the way, despite your insinuation. Those calculations were all based on working parents, no disabled parents or children at all.

I find these constant attacks on people with disabilities rather disgusting, to be frank. This post had nothing to do with disabilities at all, did it @Samslaundry? Yet you had to throw that in. It’s a perfect example of what I’ve been saying throughout: this tendency to hate anybody with a lower income than you (“how dare they get help that I don’t just because they’re disabled? It’s not faaaaaaaiiiir”) or a higher income than you (“TAX THEM TO DEATH! 100% marginal tax rate is NOT ENOUGH!”).

And that attitude is precisely why the UK economy and society is screwed. You’ve expressed perfectly the exact mentality I was referring to that has driven and continues to drive this and will drive it off the cliff before long.

@InPraiseOfIdleness whilst I don’t necessarily disagree with your post which I thought was prescient, by the way, you made the calculation based on one person earning, whereas I believe the op’s situation is that there are two earners, contributing £90k a piece. I wonder how the numbers look on that basis?