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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To not understand how people fund their lives and feel a bit jealous?

614 replies

Travelenthusiast · 28/04/2025 08:23

Just that really. Mid-30s and we have what I have always seen as a healthy income of £180k per annum (obviously been lower when we were younger and increased over time), and had some family help - about £50k to buy our first house several years ago.

And i’m not complaining about our quality of life- I know we are lucky and can afford a good holiday every year, and a more expensive/ luxury holiday occasionally. DS does a few extra-curricular activities, we don’t have to worry about the food shop total (we aren't extravagant at all) and can afford to eat out a few times a month etc. And I know we are lucky as I grew up in a poor family and understand the stress and implications.

But we have a very modest 3-bed house (with a big mortgage), our car is ten years old and there’s no way we could replace it, we can rarely afford to replace clothes and shoes for us (of course do for DS), days out are thought through to reduce cost, would make pack lunches to take into work and don’t buy shop coffees, we could not afford private school, and often we cut out the eating out to add to savings instead- basically £ is not abundant. And we are relatively careful financially and not big spenders generally. None of this is me saying our life is bad- I know we are really luckily, but just trying to give an idea of limitations / life.

We do live in SE commuter belt (not london) where everything is very expensive.

But we are surrounded by families who have so much more, so apparently effortlessly. We are genuinely one of the only local families without a 4x4 (i know cry me a river 🤣). How do others have it all and have the big house, the new car, endless holidays, SAHM often, the new clothes, meals out, lots of savings? Is it simply that they earn much more? I know we are lucky but I just don’t understand how so many can be so wealthy? Could most of our network really have a household income over £200k?!

OP posts:
Kbroughton · 30/04/2025 09:57

I think the OP has got a hard time. She was naïve in the post to think she wouldnt. There are always people who are better or worse off. We have a combined income of £185k after tax, which is massive. I think what the OP was getting at, is that if you had told me even 10 years ago that is what we would be earning, I would have thought I would be going on three big holidays a year, kid in private school, eating out all the time, amazing cars etc. And that's not the case. Now I have a very nice 4 bed detached house in the South Middle bit of the country, so thats lovely. Dont have to worry like the vast amount of others do in terms of one off bills etc. But I am not having a luxury lifestyle that I would have thought £185 would give me. Part of it is boiling frog of course. You dont go over night from 9k a year (what I was earning at 23) to 135k a year (what I am earning at 48). It goes up in increments as does your spending. I have a cleaner now, for example. I have a dog walker more than I really need to. My travel is £750 a month and I can pay it off each month. If i want to buy a new outfit, I will. When i was 22 I had to wear my mums suit to go to an interview! What I feel sorry for the OP on, and I think the crux of the issue, is that I dont look around at others who have more and feel sad about it. I feel incredibly lucky, every day pretty much, that i have what I have. I dont look at others and wish I had what they had. The OP I think attaches happiness to material things, and compares those material things to other material things. OP if you are still around, I would go to counselling to explore that issue, and how you can re assess what happiness is for you.

Lauren1983 · 30/04/2025 09:58

IwasDueANameChange · 30/04/2025 08:22

A lot of the people who come on here and say "we've got a 30k household income and we have 2 holidays a year and a 3 bed semi in the south east" are eother talking shite or not giving the full picture.
They are typically leaving out that:

  • they receive benefit top ups which hugely boost their post tax income
  • the house is a social home
  • the rent is paid by UC
  • They are mortgage free
  • they have no children still home/no childcare costs
  • they live in the "south east" but in a much cheaper/deprived area (eg jaywick is technically in the south east!!)

Our income is £30k a year. We get child benefit but nothing else. We do not live in social housing. We have a mortgage. We have no childcare costs but that is because we work different shifts.

The government thinks £30k is enough money to raise a child.I think some people would be surprised how low your income has to be to get substantial help. Most households on large benefits have multiple children entitled to disability benefits or live in places with high rent.

IwasDueANameChange · 30/04/2025 10:14

I feel like as a society we are being sold a crap aspirational dream of big cars, luxury holidays, constant home remodelling and renovations, high-maintenance beauty regimes, constant eating out, ever-changing fashions. Total victims of capitalism that we feel our value is measured against all this. If you live in suburbia life me, I think the pressure is worse. We're not rubbing shoulders with the people who are managing to opt out of all this.

This is so true. Its often debt funded too - we were at a barbecue last weekend with friends and a few threw into the conversation that they were absolutely stretched to the max on car payments (driving a huge bmw) & mortgage, having done a huge reno on an already impressive large house. A lot are seriously neglecting things like pensions to cover this lifestyle affluenza.

TwoFeralKids · 30/04/2025 10:34

IwasDueANameChange · 30/04/2025 10:14

I feel like as a society we are being sold a crap aspirational dream of big cars, luxury holidays, constant home remodelling and renovations, high-maintenance beauty regimes, constant eating out, ever-changing fashions. Total victims of capitalism that we feel our value is measured against all this. If you live in suburbia life me, I think the pressure is worse. We're not rubbing shoulders with the people who are managing to opt out of all this.

This is so true. Its often debt funded too - we were at a barbecue last weekend with friends and a few threw into the conversation that they were absolutely stretched to the max on car payments (driving a huge bmw) & mortgage, having done a huge reno on an already impressive large house. A lot are seriously neglecting things like pensions to cover this lifestyle affluenza.

Not ideal but maybe they are deciding to just live life and enjoy?

MerlinsBeard1 · 30/04/2025 10:55

Tone deaf.

Pennycrown · 30/04/2025 11:26

Are you kidding?
I am single, so 1 wage of 30k. I have a mortgage and bills like everyone else, as well as a 10 year old car.
I can buy exactly what I want, but have to save up for it.
I do have credit cards but only use in emergencies.
How can you not afford stuff from that income???

IwasDueANameChange · 30/04/2025 11:53

Lauren1983

Im guessing your mortgage is low though - how much are you paying per month? A 3 bed semi in most south east commuter towns at current prices would have you paying £1,500 a month minimum on mortgage. Thats £18,000 out of post tax income, leaving less than £1,000 per month for:
Utility bills (elec, gas, water)
Council tax
Telecoms (internet, tv license)
Food
Transport costs (either public transport or car costs/petrol to travel to work)
Clothing including school uniforms/shoes
School trips

Many people will also have childcare bills on top.

I can't see how anyone on that income can be claiming to be comfortable and affording annual holidays (unless they have access to free holiday accommodation).

InPraiseOfIdleness · 30/04/2025 13:41

WatermelonLolly · 28/04/2025 09:37

Haven’t read whole thread but just wanted to show solidarity with the op and that i can completely understand why you feel this way.

We are in a very similar position, three children, joint salaries of around 150 K, live in the north-west but in a pricey area.

Three children, two at uni which is crippling. One dog. One holiday per year abroad, not particularly extravagant with spending, but will eat out occasionally and pay for phones, and clothes shoes etc for DC’s.

There is very little to spare, and the tax bill is enormous.

I think that there is a misconception among lower earnings that this salary gives you an enormous amount of spare cash, when in reality if you have a large mortgage and other High outgoings, high taxes and no parental help it can be quite tough.

I think this is what people do not understand.

Many people will see a salary that is several times theirs and multiply up the net pay assuming it is the same. It isn’t.

Let’s compare a lone parent earning £180,000 to a couple earning the average UK salary each. Let’s assume each family has two young children to support.

£180,000 salary is a net pay of £8,932 per month assuming no student loan repayments (unlikely for those earning at this level) and no pension contributions (which would be irresponsible). Factoring in a 15% pension contribution and a student loan on Plan 2, net pay is £6,549.

Someone earning this amount will have no personal allowance, no tax free childcare, 15 funded hours for each child withdrawn, no child benefit. The average cost of a full time nursery place in England is now £239 per week (after deducting the universal 15 funded hours) so this is £12,425 per year or £1,035 per month, per child. For two children, £2,070. So the lone parent’s net pay is now £4,479. Bear in mind also that nursery costs are significantly higher in more expensive areas - at least 50% higher than average and sometimes more, so the net income after tax and childcare is likely far lower than this in reality as the childcare costs in expensive areas where there are good jobs are much higher.

The average UK full time salary as of 2024 was £37,430. Again, with a 15% pension contribution net pay is £2,165. So for a couple both earning average UK salary and making decent pension contributions their net income is £4,330. However, this couple will receive child benefit of £2,252 per year (£188 per month) tax free as well. They also receive an additional 15 funded hours per child at nursery which means they’ll only pay £127 per week per child for nursery care, and this is reduced by 20% through tax free childcare to £102 equating to £881 per month for both children. Their net income after tax and childcare is £3,637.

The difference in net income after tax and childcare costs between the couple with two children both earning the average UK full time salary and a lone parent earning £180,000 is, on average per the above, £4,479 - £3,637 = £842.

Yet people assume this person must be super rich, taking extravagant holidays, having children in private school (not a chance on that salary!) or mismanaging their money if they are finding things financially challenging.

Given that most people earning £180,000 per year will be living in very expensive areas of the country and having to pay very high mortgages or rents. If they move further away childcare would be impossible and commuting costs would take up most of the additional money, anyway. In 2024, the average monthly mortgage payment for a home in greater London was £2,340 (and that figure is skewed by people who bought a long, long time ago and therefore have very low mortgages now, so for a family with young children the real figure is likely much higher, but let’s go with this lower estimate for the illustration).

The lone parent’s net income after this average mortgage payment for an average kind of home is therefore £3,637 - £2,340 = £1,297. That is what they have left from their £180,000 salary after tax, childcare and housing costs (if they are lucky). From this they must pay Council Tax, utilities, commuting costs, food, clothing, insurance, house maintenance etc.

Hardly a life of luxury.

Meanwhile the couple can live anywhere in the country, where there is much cheaper housing and childcare is less expensive, even food in the shops is cheaper. The average UK mortgage payment across the UK is £1,441. So after their tax, childcare and mortgage payment they can have £3,637 - £1,441 = £2,196 left for their Council tax, utilities, commuting costs (likely lower as they can work locally given they only need to earn the average salary to achieve this standard of living), food, clothing, insurance, house maintenance etc.

It is therefore very apparent that a couple both earning average UK salaries are likely to be vastly better off than a lone parent earning £180,000 per year, with almost twice as much disposable income left after tax, childcare and housing costs.

The biggest problem with these discussions is that many people just do not seem to comprehend how redistributive the UK system is already, and how much is is absolutely hammering those who earn these higher salaries by means-testing all family support and taxing them marginal rates than in some income brackets exceed 100% when you factor in student loans and childcare funding withdrawal.

Then there is the fact that the couple might be able to work their hours around each other so that they don’t need full time nursery for their children, or even any nursery at all if they work opposite shifts. Meanwhile, the lone parent is trying to do everything they do in 48 hours in 24 hours, paying way more in tax and being left with less disposable income than them despite earning a gross salary of 2.5 what the couple earn combined. And anybody who thinks that earning that kind of money doesn’t come with huge demands, stress and sacrifices and a lack of time for home is kidding themselves, yet this person is expected to sacrifice their time with their children (who only have one parent) to keep paying these extortionate rates of tax to help other families who have two parents and twice as much time to split between earning and caring, yet told they shouldn’t access the childcare funding etc. that they pay for themselves.

I think there is an immense amount of financial illiteracy and people simply do not comprehend how much higher earners pay in tax and assume it’s a similar proportion to what they pay from their salaries. It isn’t.

Two minimum wage earners working full time, also with two young children will earn £25,397 each so £50,794 in total. If we include a 15% pension contributions for each of them as well but no student loan - since you don’t need a degree to get a minimum wage job - their net pay is £1,563 each so £3,126 per month.

If we run these figures through a benefit calculator (the £2,116 gross earnings each before tax and NI, and the £317 per month each pension contribution), and add the average greater London rent of £2,026 per month and the Council Tax Band for an average UK property, it states that this couple will receive £522 per week i.e. £2,262 per month in universal credit. Their net income is now £3,126 + £2,262 = £5,388. They then pay their rent of £2,062 so have £3,276 left after tax and housing costs, plus universal credit. They will also receive £43.30 of child benefit per week, like the couple on average wages who have a mortgage property but in a cheaper part of the UK. This is £188 per month, so they have £3,276 + £188 = £3,464 left to fund childcare, food and other living expenses. Also, because they claim universal credit, 85% of their childcare costs are funded through universal credit, so it costs them next to nothing. They are therefore very significantly better off after tax and childcare than the lone parent working crazy hours to earn £180,000 to try to provide their children with a decent life. And they have 48 hours per day to take a leisurely approach to work and home life, two parents available to juggle home life and spend time with the children, and have more disposable income than the person who has sacrificed an enormous amount to train and work crazy hours to earn the £180k salary. Those kinds of jobs don’t just fall into people’s laps randomly.

Yet all the time we see these posts saying that people earning those amounts must be living immensely wealthy lifestyle. I bet they haven’t done the above calculations and realised that actually a couple on minimum wage in London would have far more disposable income.

At some point people will need to realise why all the people in these earnings brackets are emigrating, cutting their working hours, or retiring early (depending on age). A cash cow will stop producing milk if you milk it dry. If there’s no incentive to work any more (and indeed your net income will go down if you do so with marginal tax rates for people with children in some brackets exceeding 100%) then who would do this? There’s a difference between being socially minded and a total mug.

There’s a good argument for taxing the super-wealthy more morally, but it’s incredibly difficult to do without actually causing more economic damage without international cooperation, which will not happen. The people who are not wealthy, but work incredibly hard and have become moderately successful have been carrying this country for nearly two decades now but have nothing left to give and are giving up or shipping out.

What the UK population needs to realise is that the difference between the tax systems in other countries that have the service levels they covet and the UK system is not that what they deem to be “the rich” pay more (the rich, have capital, they don’t work for income). The difference is that in other northern European countries the low and middle earners pay a far higher percentage of income in income tax. People in the £75k- £150k salary ranges in the UK in particular pay some of the very highest tax rates in the entire world for that earnings level. You can’t get more from them now, as the above demonstrates. So the choices that at some point people will have to face are 1) accept a much lower level of services in the UK; or 2) everyone paying a much higher rate of tax, including low and middle earners (an increase of probably around 8% to make things comparable with other European countries with better standards of living).

But nobody wants to hear that. And nobody’s interested in maths. So we’ll carry on with the population squabbling amongst themselves and ignoring the large, grey animal with a big bottom and oversized ears and just hoping it goes away until even more painful decisions have to be made down the line when the national debt becomes unserviceable and all of our talents and ambitious young people have left.

YourChirpyFatball · 30/04/2025 14:08

@InPraiseOfIdleness
That was an amazing post. Thanks for all that interesting information.

rosemarble · 30/04/2025 14:08

I think that there is a misconception among lower earnings that this salary gives you an enormous amount of spare cash, when in reality if you have a large mortgage and other High outgoings, high taxes and no parental help it can be quite tough.

I don't think many people struggle to understand that if you have a higher salary and then spend it on a high mortgage, high outgoings and are in a high tax bracket then you won't have loads left. The 'it can be tough' is of their own making.

If I earn salary A and spend whatever on my outgoings and then get a promotion to salary B and increase my outgoings accordingly then I'd have to be a bit dim to wonder where my money went.

BonBon20 · 30/04/2025 14:19

InPraiseOfIdleness · 30/04/2025 13:41

I think this is what people do not understand.

Many people will see a salary that is several times theirs and multiply up the net pay assuming it is the same. It isn’t.

Let’s compare a lone parent earning £180,000 to a couple earning the average UK salary each. Let’s assume each family has two young children to support.

£180,000 salary is a net pay of £8,932 per month assuming no student loan repayments (unlikely for those earning at this level) and no pension contributions (which would be irresponsible). Factoring in a 15% pension contribution and a student loan on Plan 2, net pay is £6,549.

Someone earning this amount will have no personal allowance, no tax free childcare, 15 funded hours for each child withdrawn, no child benefit. The average cost of a full time nursery place in England is now £239 per week (after deducting the universal 15 funded hours) so this is £12,425 per year or £1,035 per month, per child. For two children, £2,070. So the lone parent’s net pay is now £4,479. Bear in mind also that nursery costs are significantly higher in more expensive areas - at least 50% higher than average and sometimes more, so the net income after tax and childcare is likely far lower than this in reality as the childcare costs in expensive areas where there are good jobs are much higher.

The average UK full time salary as of 2024 was £37,430. Again, with a 15% pension contribution net pay is £2,165. So for a couple both earning average UK salary and making decent pension contributions their net income is £4,330. However, this couple will receive child benefit of £2,252 per year (£188 per month) tax free as well. They also receive an additional 15 funded hours per child at nursery which means they’ll only pay £127 per week per child for nursery care, and this is reduced by 20% through tax free childcare to £102 equating to £881 per month for both children. Their net income after tax and childcare is £3,637.

The difference in net income after tax and childcare costs between the couple with two children both earning the average UK full time salary and a lone parent earning £180,000 is, on average per the above, £4,479 - £3,637 = £842.

Yet people assume this person must be super rich, taking extravagant holidays, having children in private school (not a chance on that salary!) or mismanaging their money if they are finding things financially challenging.

Given that most people earning £180,000 per year will be living in very expensive areas of the country and having to pay very high mortgages or rents. If they move further away childcare would be impossible and commuting costs would take up most of the additional money, anyway. In 2024, the average monthly mortgage payment for a home in greater London was £2,340 (and that figure is skewed by people who bought a long, long time ago and therefore have very low mortgages now, so for a family with young children the real figure is likely much higher, but let’s go with this lower estimate for the illustration).

The lone parent’s net income after this average mortgage payment for an average kind of home is therefore £3,637 - £2,340 = £1,297. That is what they have left from their £180,000 salary after tax, childcare and housing costs (if they are lucky). From this they must pay Council Tax, utilities, commuting costs, food, clothing, insurance, house maintenance etc.

Hardly a life of luxury.

Meanwhile the couple can live anywhere in the country, where there is much cheaper housing and childcare is less expensive, even food in the shops is cheaper. The average UK mortgage payment across the UK is £1,441. So after their tax, childcare and mortgage payment they can have £3,637 - £1,441 = £2,196 left for their Council tax, utilities, commuting costs (likely lower as they can work locally given they only need to earn the average salary to achieve this standard of living), food, clothing, insurance, house maintenance etc.

It is therefore very apparent that a couple both earning average UK salaries are likely to be vastly better off than a lone parent earning £180,000 per year, with almost twice as much disposable income left after tax, childcare and housing costs.

The biggest problem with these discussions is that many people just do not seem to comprehend how redistributive the UK system is already, and how much is is absolutely hammering those who earn these higher salaries by means-testing all family support and taxing them marginal rates than in some income brackets exceed 100% when you factor in student loans and childcare funding withdrawal.

Then there is the fact that the couple might be able to work their hours around each other so that they don’t need full time nursery for their children, or even any nursery at all if they work opposite shifts. Meanwhile, the lone parent is trying to do everything they do in 48 hours in 24 hours, paying way more in tax and being left with less disposable income than them despite earning a gross salary of 2.5 what the couple earn combined. And anybody who thinks that earning that kind of money doesn’t come with huge demands, stress and sacrifices and a lack of time for home is kidding themselves, yet this person is expected to sacrifice their time with their children (who only have one parent) to keep paying these extortionate rates of tax to help other families who have two parents and twice as much time to split between earning and caring, yet told they shouldn’t access the childcare funding etc. that they pay for themselves.

I think there is an immense amount of financial illiteracy and people simply do not comprehend how much higher earners pay in tax and assume it’s a similar proportion to what they pay from their salaries. It isn’t.

Two minimum wage earners working full time, also with two young children will earn £25,397 each so £50,794 in total. If we include a 15% pension contributions for each of them as well but no student loan - since you don’t need a degree to get a minimum wage job - their net pay is £1,563 each so £3,126 per month.

If we run these figures through a benefit calculator (the £2,116 gross earnings each before tax and NI, and the £317 per month each pension contribution), and add the average greater London rent of £2,026 per month and the Council Tax Band for an average UK property, it states that this couple will receive £522 per week i.e. £2,262 per month in universal credit. Their net income is now £3,126 + £2,262 = £5,388. They then pay their rent of £2,062 so have £3,276 left after tax and housing costs, plus universal credit. They will also receive £43.30 of child benefit per week, like the couple on average wages who have a mortgage property but in a cheaper part of the UK. This is £188 per month, so they have £3,276 + £188 = £3,464 left to fund childcare, food and other living expenses. Also, because they claim universal credit, 85% of their childcare costs are funded through universal credit, so it costs them next to nothing. They are therefore very significantly better off after tax and childcare than the lone parent working crazy hours to earn £180,000 to try to provide their children with a decent life. And they have 48 hours per day to take a leisurely approach to work and home life, two parents available to juggle home life and spend time with the children, and have more disposable income than the person who has sacrificed an enormous amount to train and work crazy hours to earn the £180k salary. Those kinds of jobs don’t just fall into people’s laps randomly.

Yet all the time we see these posts saying that people earning those amounts must be living immensely wealthy lifestyle. I bet they haven’t done the above calculations and realised that actually a couple on minimum wage in London would have far more disposable income.

At some point people will need to realise why all the people in these earnings brackets are emigrating, cutting their working hours, or retiring early (depending on age). A cash cow will stop producing milk if you milk it dry. If there’s no incentive to work any more (and indeed your net income will go down if you do so with marginal tax rates for people with children in some brackets exceeding 100%) then who would do this? There’s a difference between being socially minded and a total mug.

There’s a good argument for taxing the super-wealthy more morally, but it’s incredibly difficult to do without actually causing more economic damage without international cooperation, which will not happen. The people who are not wealthy, but work incredibly hard and have become moderately successful have been carrying this country for nearly two decades now but have nothing left to give and are giving up or shipping out.

What the UK population needs to realise is that the difference between the tax systems in other countries that have the service levels they covet and the UK system is not that what they deem to be “the rich” pay more (the rich, have capital, they don’t work for income). The difference is that in other northern European countries the low and middle earners pay a far higher percentage of income in income tax. People in the £75k- £150k salary ranges in the UK in particular pay some of the very highest tax rates in the entire world for that earnings level. You can’t get more from them now, as the above demonstrates. So the choices that at some point people will have to face are 1) accept a much lower level of services in the UK; or 2) everyone paying a much higher rate of tax, including low and middle earners (an increase of probably around 8% to make things comparable with other European countries with better standards of living).

But nobody wants to hear that. And nobody’s interested in maths. So we’ll carry on with the population squabbling amongst themselves and ignoring the large, grey animal with a big bottom and oversized ears and just hoping it goes away until even more painful decisions have to be made down the line when the national debt becomes unserviceable and all of our talents and ambitious young people have left.

THIS post!! Thank you!

We are in the “squeezed middle” and we are completely run dry and we get absolutely completely no help.

BonBon20 · 30/04/2025 14:22

rosemarble · 30/04/2025 14:08

I think that there is a misconception among lower earnings that this salary gives you an enormous amount of spare cash, when in reality if you have a large mortgage and other High outgoings, high taxes and no parental help it can be quite tough.

I don't think many people struggle to understand that if you have a higher salary and then spend it on a high mortgage, high outgoings and are in a high tax bracket then you won't have loads left. The 'it can be tough' is of their own making.

If I earn salary A and spend whatever on my outgoings and then get a promotion to salary B and increase my outgoings accordingly then I'd have to be a bit dim to wonder where my money went.

But isn’t the point that’s been made already in this thread that often the higher salary requires living in expensive areas like London where the housing and cost of living is very expensive? Not just that those people are spending on silly outgoings? Obviously I agree if they decide they “have” to have a larger and fancier house then they need but often that isn’t the case it’s just the housing is so expensive.

TheTwinklyLilacSquid · 30/04/2025 14:27

neverknowinglyunreasonable · 28/04/2025 08:32

Do you have a Just Giving page I could donate to?

😂

WatermelonLolly · 30/04/2025 14:35

InPraiseOfIdleness · 30/04/2025 13:41

I think this is what people do not understand.

Many people will see a salary that is several times theirs and multiply up the net pay assuming it is the same. It isn’t.

Let’s compare a lone parent earning £180,000 to a couple earning the average UK salary each. Let’s assume each family has two young children to support.

£180,000 salary is a net pay of £8,932 per month assuming no student loan repayments (unlikely for those earning at this level) and no pension contributions (which would be irresponsible). Factoring in a 15% pension contribution and a student loan on Plan 2, net pay is £6,549.

Someone earning this amount will have no personal allowance, no tax free childcare, 15 funded hours for each child withdrawn, no child benefit. The average cost of a full time nursery place in England is now £239 per week (after deducting the universal 15 funded hours) so this is £12,425 per year or £1,035 per month, per child. For two children, £2,070. So the lone parent’s net pay is now £4,479. Bear in mind also that nursery costs are significantly higher in more expensive areas - at least 50% higher than average and sometimes more, so the net income after tax and childcare is likely far lower than this in reality as the childcare costs in expensive areas where there are good jobs are much higher.

The average UK full time salary as of 2024 was £37,430. Again, with a 15% pension contribution net pay is £2,165. So for a couple both earning average UK salary and making decent pension contributions their net income is £4,330. However, this couple will receive child benefit of £2,252 per year (£188 per month) tax free as well. They also receive an additional 15 funded hours per child at nursery which means they’ll only pay £127 per week per child for nursery care, and this is reduced by 20% through tax free childcare to £102 equating to £881 per month for both children. Their net income after tax and childcare is £3,637.

The difference in net income after tax and childcare costs between the couple with two children both earning the average UK full time salary and a lone parent earning £180,000 is, on average per the above, £4,479 - £3,637 = £842.

Yet people assume this person must be super rich, taking extravagant holidays, having children in private school (not a chance on that salary!) or mismanaging their money if they are finding things financially challenging.

Given that most people earning £180,000 per year will be living in very expensive areas of the country and having to pay very high mortgages or rents. If they move further away childcare would be impossible and commuting costs would take up most of the additional money, anyway. In 2024, the average monthly mortgage payment for a home in greater London was £2,340 (and that figure is skewed by people who bought a long, long time ago and therefore have very low mortgages now, so for a family with young children the real figure is likely much higher, but let’s go with this lower estimate for the illustration).

The lone parent’s net income after this average mortgage payment for an average kind of home is therefore £3,637 - £2,340 = £1,297. That is what they have left from their £180,000 salary after tax, childcare and housing costs (if they are lucky). From this they must pay Council Tax, utilities, commuting costs, food, clothing, insurance, house maintenance etc.

Hardly a life of luxury.

Meanwhile the couple can live anywhere in the country, where there is much cheaper housing and childcare is less expensive, even food in the shops is cheaper. The average UK mortgage payment across the UK is £1,441. So after their tax, childcare and mortgage payment they can have £3,637 - £1,441 = £2,196 left for their Council tax, utilities, commuting costs (likely lower as they can work locally given they only need to earn the average salary to achieve this standard of living), food, clothing, insurance, house maintenance etc.

It is therefore very apparent that a couple both earning average UK salaries are likely to be vastly better off than a lone parent earning £180,000 per year, with almost twice as much disposable income left after tax, childcare and housing costs.

The biggest problem with these discussions is that many people just do not seem to comprehend how redistributive the UK system is already, and how much is is absolutely hammering those who earn these higher salaries by means-testing all family support and taxing them marginal rates than in some income brackets exceed 100% when you factor in student loans and childcare funding withdrawal.

Then there is the fact that the couple might be able to work their hours around each other so that they don’t need full time nursery for their children, or even any nursery at all if they work opposite shifts. Meanwhile, the lone parent is trying to do everything they do in 48 hours in 24 hours, paying way more in tax and being left with less disposable income than them despite earning a gross salary of 2.5 what the couple earn combined. And anybody who thinks that earning that kind of money doesn’t come with huge demands, stress and sacrifices and a lack of time for home is kidding themselves, yet this person is expected to sacrifice their time with their children (who only have one parent) to keep paying these extortionate rates of tax to help other families who have two parents and twice as much time to split between earning and caring, yet told they shouldn’t access the childcare funding etc. that they pay for themselves.

I think there is an immense amount of financial illiteracy and people simply do not comprehend how much higher earners pay in tax and assume it’s a similar proportion to what they pay from their salaries. It isn’t.

Two minimum wage earners working full time, also with two young children will earn £25,397 each so £50,794 in total. If we include a 15% pension contributions for each of them as well but no student loan - since you don’t need a degree to get a minimum wage job - their net pay is £1,563 each so £3,126 per month.

If we run these figures through a benefit calculator (the £2,116 gross earnings each before tax and NI, and the £317 per month each pension contribution), and add the average greater London rent of £2,026 per month and the Council Tax Band for an average UK property, it states that this couple will receive £522 per week i.e. £2,262 per month in universal credit. Their net income is now £3,126 + £2,262 = £5,388. They then pay their rent of £2,062 so have £3,276 left after tax and housing costs, plus universal credit. They will also receive £43.30 of child benefit per week, like the couple on average wages who have a mortgage property but in a cheaper part of the UK. This is £188 per month, so they have £3,276 + £188 = £3,464 left to fund childcare, food and other living expenses. Also, because they claim universal credit, 85% of their childcare costs are funded through universal credit, so it costs them next to nothing. They are therefore very significantly better off after tax and childcare than the lone parent working crazy hours to earn £180,000 to try to provide their children with a decent life. And they have 48 hours per day to take a leisurely approach to work and home life, two parents available to juggle home life and spend time with the children, and have more disposable income than the person who has sacrificed an enormous amount to train and work crazy hours to earn the £180k salary. Those kinds of jobs don’t just fall into people’s laps randomly.

Yet all the time we see these posts saying that people earning those amounts must be living immensely wealthy lifestyle. I bet they haven’t done the above calculations and realised that actually a couple on minimum wage in London would have far more disposable income.

At some point people will need to realise why all the people in these earnings brackets are emigrating, cutting their working hours, or retiring early (depending on age). A cash cow will stop producing milk if you milk it dry. If there’s no incentive to work any more (and indeed your net income will go down if you do so with marginal tax rates for people with children in some brackets exceeding 100%) then who would do this? There’s a difference between being socially minded and a total mug.

There’s a good argument for taxing the super-wealthy more morally, but it’s incredibly difficult to do without actually causing more economic damage without international cooperation, which will not happen. The people who are not wealthy, but work incredibly hard and have become moderately successful have been carrying this country for nearly two decades now but have nothing left to give and are giving up or shipping out.

What the UK population needs to realise is that the difference between the tax systems in other countries that have the service levels they covet and the UK system is not that what they deem to be “the rich” pay more (the rich, have capital, they don’t work for income). The difference is that in other northern European countries the low and middle earners pay a far higher percentage of income in income tax. People in the £75k- £150k salary ranges in the UK in particular pay some of the very highest tax rates in the entire world for that earnings level. You can’t get more from them now, as the above demonstrates. So the choices that at some point people will have to face are 1) accept a much lower level of services in the UK; or 2) everyone paying a much higher rate of tax, including low and middle earners (an increase of probably around 8% to make things comparable with other European countries with better standards of living).

But nobody wants to hear that. And nobody’s interested in maths. So we’ll carry on with the population squabbling amongst themselves and ignoring the large, grey animal with a big bottom and oversized ears and just hoping it goes away until even more painful decisions have to be made down the line when the national debt becomes unserviceable and all of our talents and ambitious young people have left.

Excellent post, describes what I was trying to convey perfectly

WatermelonLolly · 30/04/2025 14:37

To add….what is happening with some of our high earning friends is they are retiring early or dropping hours to reduce their stress and tax bills.

if enough do this there will be even less money to be used to pay for services

Samslaundry · 30/04/2025 14:41

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Samslaundry · 30/04/2025 14:47

Lauren1983 · 30/04/2025 09:58

Our income is £30k a year. We get child benefit but nothing else. We do not live in social housing. We have a mortgage. We have no childcare costs but that is because we work different shifts.

The government thinks £30k is enough money to raise a child.I think some people would be surprised how low your income has to be to get substantial help. Most households on large benefits have multiple children entitled to disability benefits or live in places with high rent.

Same here. These threads always bring out posters talking such shit as "it's so hard on 100k anyone earning less than 100k doesn't understand because they get loads of universal credit and benefits"

It's such horse shit our income is 35k a year and get no benefits except child benefit (only 25 a week hardly makes us richer than someone on 100k) and also have a mortgage to pay.

They're just making excuses for their own bad budgeting

InPraiseOfIdleness · 30/04/2025 15:02

WatermelonLolly · 30/04/2025 14:37

To add….what is happening with some of our high earning friends is they are retiring early or dropping hours to reduce their stress and tax bills.

if enough do this there will be even less money to be used to pay for services

Even the Guardian has reported on this.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/feb/13/full-time-part-time-work-no-longer-pays-uk-economy

Jeremy Hunt commissioned research on why UK productivity is so low. He was told why: these cliff-edges in every part of our tax and benefits system which discourage work. Did he rectify it? No. Reeves has been told the same. Has she rectified it? No.

The answer of “no” in both cases was to do with political optics, in different directions, but exemplifies why the UK economy is in such a mess. There is no evidence-based policy making, short-term savings are continually attempted despite the politicians (or any colour) knowing that this will result in larger longer term costs.

If the Government (any Government) genuinely wanted to raise UK living standards then they are well aware this can only happen by increasing productivity and therefore growth. It’s far easier to get the electorate to squabble over the crumbs, and often more politically expedient. All they care about is the next election and public perception, rather than long-term evidence-based policy making. That is why we are in the mess we are in and living standards in the UK will continue to drop until this changes.

They know what they need to do. Yes, long-term infrastructure projects (vastly neglected in the UK for decades) may improve growth, in 5-20 years. Yes, reforming the health service and education and state pensions all desperately need to happen (but not in the ways that this Government or the last one proposed).

What is, however, entirely within their control and would have an immediate effect i.e. change behaviour within a few months is to reform the UK tax and benefits system and remove or at the very least immensely reduce these cliff-edges that discourage economic activity at every level.

They have been told this. They know it. Reeves does has some economic training so she absolutely knows that she could do this and improve things massively raising living standards for all people in the UK because it would increase tax revenue to spend on services (this can be seen from the HMRC data with “bunching” below each threshold where there is means testing).

So the question we should all be asking the politicians is why aren’t they doing it? Are they more bothered about how “it looks” and what the media will say than actually raising UK living standards for all of our citizens? Clearly the answer to this question is “yes”, or they’d have done it already, It’s a no-brainer.

Your reduce the universal credit taper rate from 55% to maybe 35% or 40% and suddenly it’s worth people working more hours and the shortage of care workers etc disappears. You abolish the withdrawal of child benefit (means-testing that - as in ,most situations - has cost more than it saves so benefits only the additional HMRC employees who have had to be employed to administer the means-testing system) and you abolish the withdrawal of the personal allowance and the withdrawal of childcare funding and make them universal again. Within a matter of months people at all levels of earnings will be working more hours, reconsidering early retirement or moves abroad to escape these tax traps, or staying on benefits when they could work more because the marginal financial benefit is too low to bother.

It’s not rocket science. We know what works, we can see it demonstrated in many, many other countries around us who used to be our international comparators but whom we’re falling behind in PPP year on year.

But they’re too scared of being “soft on benefits” or “giving tax cuts to the rich” and treat the electorate as though we are all intellectually impaired because they think it’s too difficult to communicate the economic fact that removing these insane policies (which the Government could do tomorrow) would make everyone in the UK better off, not just those it effects directly: there would be more tax revenue, lower welfare claims and more money to fund public services.

This is just one aspect of UK economic mismanagement, part of a far larger pattern. But it is such a blindingly obvious one and easily provable with facts from freely available online calculators: you don’t have to be an expert in economics to see if for yourself. It’s as clear as day, factual, not subjective. Yet the electorate squabble amongst themselves rather than challenging the politicians on why not one party is suggesting this very obvious way to start to improve things for the people who live in this country.

Rather than attacking each other, it might be worth some thought why the majority of the UK population is happy to continue in this way becoming poorer year on year when there are measures our Government (whichever incompetents they happen to be at the time) could take to improve this for us all but choose not to do so, despite multiple independent economists having pointed out the way forward to them.

Are people happy with this?

If not, what are they going to do about it? Will they contact their MPs and demand change?

No, of course not. Let’s just continue making angry posts online resenting everyone in a richer/ poorer situation that they personally happen to be. I’m sure that’ll fix it….

‘It’s just not worth it’: why full-time work no longer pays in the UK

Britain has a shrinking economy and a worker shortage – so why aren’t part-time workers increasing their hours?

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/feb/13/full-time-part-time-work-no-longer-pays-uk-economy

InPraiseOfIdleness · 30/04/2025 15:03

WatermelonLolly · 30/04/2025 14:37

To add….what is happening with some of our high earning friends is they are retiring early or dropping hours to reduce their stress and tax bills.

if enough do this there will be even less money to be used to pay for services

Deleted - duplicate post due to weird internet!

InPraiseOfIdleness · 30/04/2025 15:13

Samslaundry · 30/04/2025 14:47

Same here. These threads always bring out posters talking such shit as "it's so hard on 100k anyone earning less than 100k doesn't understand because they get loads of universal credit and benefits"

It's such horse shit our income is 35k a year and get no benefits except child benefit (only 25 a week hardly makes us richer than someone on 100k) and also have a mortgage to pay.

They're just making excuses for their own bad budgeting

Please read my post above and tell me which figures you disagree with any why. Salary data etc from the ONS. Tax calculations performed per the rates available on .gov UK. Average mortage/ rent data again from ONS. Let me know which part of it you think is incorrect.

Samslaundry · 30/04/2025 15:53

InPraiseOfIdleness · 30/04/2025 15:13

Please read my post above and tell me which figures you disagree with any why. Salary data etc from the ONS. Tax calculations performed per the rates available on .gov UK. Average mortage/ rent data again from ONS. Let me know which part of it you think is incorrect.

Yours is an interesting comment, I don't dispute it.
However I've been told on similar threads to this one that people on 70-100k etc have it harder than me because I apparently "get loads of free stuff and universal credit and my children must all get free school meals"

With 35k a year we don't get any benefits except child benefit. Also free school meals you have to earn under 7k but to read a Mumsnet thread you would think it was under 50k.

Some posters just don't want to accept there are millions of people in between X posters high income and unemployed on the dole that budget better than them. The average salary is 37k I think. But posters constantly moaning they are broke on 80+k? I for one don't buy it.

spicemaiden · 30/04/2025 15:54

I don’t even know where to start - out income is over 100000 less and my life is as you’ve described yours (except with nearly 20 year old car that I still had to go into debt for) and no holiday to speak of. Almost never ever eat out. Everything we have is second hand/freebies/really old.

If this car ivd just had to finance dies it will literally sink me.

you must have insane outgoings

InPraiseOfIdleness · 30/04/2025 16:22

Samslaundry · 30/04/2025 15:53

Yours is an interesting comment, I don't dispute it.
However I've been told on similar threads to this one that people on 70-100k etc have it harder than me because I apparently "get loads of free stuff and universal credit and my children must all get free school meals"

With 35k a year we don't get any benefits except child benefit. Also free school meals you have to earn under 7k but to read a Mumsnet thread you would think it was under 50k.

Some posters just don't want to accept there are millions of people in between X posters high income and unemployed on the dole that budget better than them. The average salary is 37k I think. But posters constantly moaning they are broke on 80+k? I for one don't buy it.

So you will call something “horse shit”, that is set out and documented with verifiable numbers, and yet provide no evidence yourself to the contrary?

Brutalist · 30/04/2025 16:22

@Travelenthusiast this is so twisted. What do you mean you can’t afford clothes or a new car? Because you’re spending the money on holidays and eating out instead? Time for some self reflection…

Samslaundry · 30/04/2025 16:47

InPraiseOfIdleness · 30/04/2025 16:22

So you will call something “horse shit”, that is set out and documented with verifiable numbers, and yet provide no evidence yourself to the contrary?

I've given you evidence for everything I've said?

I've been told on similar threads to these that I'm better off than someone with twice or sometimes even three times my income because I "must be getting loads of free stuff including free school meals, universal credit and other benefits". I've told you the only benefit I get is child benefit (only 25 a week hardly making me better off than someone with three times my income) and I've told you you have to earn less than 7k to qualify for free school meals.

So yes I think posters who tell me I'm better off with 35k income than they are on 80k+ income are talking horseshit. That is all my point is