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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To not understand how people fund their lives and feel a bit jealous?

614 replies

Travelenthusiast · 28/04/2025 08:23

Just that really. Mid-30s and we have what I have always seen as a healthy income of £180k per annum (obviously been lower when we were younger and increased over time), and had some family help - about £50k to buy our first house several years ago.

And i’m not complaining about our quality of life- I know we are lucky and can afford a good holiday every year, and a more expensive/ luxury holiday occasionally. DS does a few extra-curricular activities, we don’t have to worry about the food shop total (we aren't extravagant at all) and can afford to eat out a few times a month etc. And I know we are lucky as I grew up in a poor family and understand the stress and implications.

But we have a very modest 3-bed house (with a big mortgage), our car is ten years old and there’s no way we could replace it, we can rarely afford to replace clothes and shoes for us (of course do for DS), days out are thought through to reduce cost, would make pack lunches to take into work and don’t buy shop coffees, we could not afford private school, and often we cut out the eating out to add to savings instead- basically £ is not abundant. And we are relatively careful financially and not big spenders generally. None of this is me saying our life is bad- I know we are really luckily, but just trying to give an idea of limitations / life.

We do live in SE commuter belt (not london) where everything is very expensive.

But we are surrounded by families who have so much more, so apparently effortlessly. We are genuinely one of the only local families without a 4x4 (i know cry me a river 🤣). How do others have it all and have the big house, the new car, endless holidays, SAHM often, the new clothes, meals out, lots of savings? Is it simply that they earn much more? I know we are lucky but I just don’t understand how so many can be so wealthy? Could most of our network really have a household income over £200k?!

OP posts:
InPraiseOfIdleness · 01/05/2025 14:00

You are confusing the wealthy - who do not live on earned income - with those with high salaries.

The wealthy have capital, and pay very low rates of tax. As I pointed out earlier in the thread, there’s a very strong moral argument for taxing them more but it is impossible to implement without dire economic consequences without international cooperation, which will not happen currently.

Higher earners in terms of salaries who are not wealthy at all in terms of capital by any means have been the ones carrying this country for the last two decades with some of the very highest tax rates in the entire world. The scope for penalising them further has been exhausted, hence the declining productivity rates because of the marginal rates of tax particularly from £60k upwards often exceeding 80% when you factor in student loans (effectively another 9% tax) and withdrawal of child benefit. Once they reach £100k, the marginal tax rate goes over 100%. It can be 20,000% or higher (i.e. you earn £1 more and lose £20,000 in net income). Nobody is going to do that, are they?

No other country designs their tax system like this, and this is one of the key reasons why UK economic growth and social mobility and productivity have been in reverse for some time now. Until the tax and benefits systems change this will not change, the disincentives to work will continue and living standards in the UK will continue to decline.

I’ve explained it all as clearly as I can.

Here are some graphs that help to explain some of the problems in a simple visual format.

https://taxpolicy.org.uk/2024/10/17/reform-income-tax-end-the-scandal-of-high-marginal-rates/

Honestly, this isn’t how other countries structure their economies, for very good and - I hope - very obvious reasons.

InPraiseOfIdleness · 01/05/2025 14:02

It’s certainly not regressive at all. Quite the opposite if you actually look at the reality of it per the graphs posted above.

Samslaundry · 01/05/2025 14:06

InPraiseOfIdleness · 01/05/2025 13:20

@Samslaundry here, again, are some direct quotes from posts you made about disabled people and disabled children in particular, which had nothing to do with this thread and nothing to do with the numbers that I posted because, again, no disability allowances for disabled children or adults or non-working parents were included in my calculations at all, and the main post had nothing to do with disabilities, so it was very strange that you went off on these rants about disabled children when they had nothing to do with either the OP’s post or the numbers that I’d provided. I think perhaps someone’s been reading a little too much Daily Mail or Daily Express to be able to have a rational and objective view of the economic facts and I am bemused why you continue to keep bringing this up when nothing in any post I’ve seen on this thread other than your own said anything about disabled people. It’s very unpleasant for you to have made such comments and I think you should apologise because people who are disabled or who have disabled children may well be reading this and you made these totally irrelevant attack on vulnerable people for no reason whatsoever.

You keep saying that people have made comments about your personal situation but I’ve read back through the thread and can’t see any at all. You are the one who took comments about economic policies personally and said that examples provided were “horse shit” alongside many other instances of swearing, personal attacks and unpleasant language, simply because the situations being discussed for comparative purposes weren’t identical to your own. I can’t see where anybody has attacked you for your personal situation or told you that you’re better off than other people who earn more, though you’ve claimed this in several comments. I may well have missed this in the thread as it’s now rather long.

Can you repost the comment where somebody told you that you personally are better off than somebody earning significantly more than you? If you do so - and it’s untrue - I’m quite happy to provide an analysis with actual numbers based on the tax and benefit rates to prove the case for you that you’re not better off than whatever posted you’re saying has claimed that you are despite them earning significantly more than you are.

There really is no need to be so rude and unpleasant to people as you have been, but no, I haven’t and won’t be reporting your posts as I think it’s better to leave the thread in tact so that people can see exactly what different posters have said and who has been reasonable and rational, or not.

Can you explain what about those comments makes you think I'm "attacking disabled people".

It was an observation that many examples posters have of families recieving thousands of top up benefits but fail to mention there's more to the situation such as multiple disabled children. And my original comment was not a response to one of your comments so your "calculations" were irrelevant to my comment.

As for me being "rude and pleasant" to you, you accusing me of hating anyone richer than me or disabled when I've said nothing like that is far more rude.

WickWood · 01/05/2025 14:16

InPraiseOfIdleness · 01/05/2025 12:06

@DustyMaiden and @WickWood I presume you have posted those ridiculous comments without having read the thread.

The level of economic illiteracy in the UK is so disturbing and is the primary reason why we are in this situation with perpetually declining living standards at all levels of earnings: clueless people keep voting for policies that will ensure the continuation of this because they can’t be bothered to do basic maths.

I haven't ready 23 pages, no. However, are you seriously saying its remotely believable that someone who earns almost 200k and is planning a 15k holiday can't afford a pair of shoes? Nothing to do with me being clueless and all to do with very basic logic.

InPraiseOfIdleness · 01/05/2025 14:16

Samslaundry · 01/05/2025 13:01

You've already been told by myself and other posters on household incomes 30-35k that we don't get any "top ups" except child benefit (you know it's only 25 pounds right?).

You're so hell bent on your narrative that a household with 180k income is worse off than a household on 30k income it's actually laughable.
And like I said it's not just rich people who have mortgages I've also got a mortgage to pay and benefits do not help out with mortgages. You haven't addressed this though probably too busy deliberately misinterpreting my comments to claim I hate and resent disabled people and rich people it's actually irritating which I'm sure is your intention.

But if you seriously think anything I've said is "attacking disabled people" feel free to report my comments and I'm sure they'll be deleted

That’s incorrect. They receive child benefit, additional childcare funding, tax free childcare and in many cases are also eligible for universal credit if they have childcare costs and/ or pay rent.

There isn’t a cut-off level of income for universal credit. I agree that it is extremely unfair that it funds rent for renters and therefore penalises those who have saved and worked and put themselves at risk by taking a mortgage.

However many households with only £35k income are indeed receiving universal credit, even if they have a mortgage, and they are having 85% of their childcare costs funded while other families who are subjected to 80%+ marginal rates of tax are having to fund childcare costs in full at a cost of over £2000 per month for two children from net pay i.e. at that tax rate they have to earn another £10,000 per month in gross pay to pay this monthly cost and end up with the same disposable income.

Others who don’t qualify for universal credit but get the additional 15 hours per week of childcare funding plus tax free childcare pay £880 on average per month for two children in childcare while someone with a higher gross salary will have to pay over £2000 for the same. But instead of having to earn £10,000 gross salary to receive that 2,000 (2000/ 0.2), someone earning £35k only has to earn £2,564 gross salary to earn the £880 (880/ 0.78).

If you refuse to accept that tax rates and subsidies make this substantial difference to net income which means that a gross salary figure is meaningless, despite all of the evidence and calculations provided to you which prove that they do, then I don’t think there is any possibility of a rational discussion with you.

InPraiseOfIdleness · 01/05/2025 14:18

Samslaundry · 01/05/2025 14:06

Can you explain what about those comments makes you think I'm "attacking disabled people".

It was an observation that many examples posters have of families recieving thousands of top up benefits but fail to mention there's more to the situation such as multiple disabled children. And my original comment was not a response to one of your comments so your "calculations" were irrelevant to my comment.

As for me being "rude and pleasant" to you, you accusing me of hating anyone richer than me or disabled when I've said nothing like that is far more rude.

I’ve already done so, twice.

Samslaundry · 01/05/2025 14:49

InPraiseOfIdleness · 01/05/2025 14:18

I’ve already done so, twice.

You've done so how? All you've done is accuse me of hating disabled people because I mentioned how I've seen posters claim all on low incomes are getting bucket loads of benefits and then using an example of one family but failing to mention that family has disabled children they receive disability benefits for. Seeing as you've accused me about ten times of hating and resenting disabled children I'd like to see you actually explain how and saying "I never mentioned disabled children in my calculations" isnt an explanation seeing as my original comment wasn't in response to any of your ramblings.

Youve been extremely disingenuous twisting my words trying to make me look like I hate disabled children but I'm apparently the big meanie for saying horseshit ?😂

And if you really think life is so much easier with 30k and its sooo hard on 180k than you are welcome to swap with me 😉

Samslaundry · 01/05/2025 14:55

InPraiseOfIdleness · 01/05/2025 14:16

That’s incorrect. They receive child benefit, additional childcare funding, tax free childcare and in many cases are also eligible for universal credit if they have childcare costs and/ or pay rent.

There isn’t a cut-off level of income for universal credit. I agree that it is extremely unfair that it funds rent for renters and therefore penalises those who have saved and worked and put themselves at risk by taking a mortgage.

However many households with only £35k income are indeed receiving universal credit, even if they have a mortgage, and they are having 85% of their childcare costs funded while other families who are subjected to 80%+ marginal rates of tax are having to fund childcare costs in full at a cost of over £2000 per month for two children from net pay i.e. at that tax rate they have to earn another £10,000 per month in gross pay to pay this monthly cost and end up with the same disposable income.

Others who don’t qualify for universal credit but get the additional 15 hours per week of childcare funding plus tax free childcare pay £880 on average per month for two children in childcare while someone with a higher gross salary will have to pay over £2000 for the same. But instead of having to earn £10,000 gross salary to receive that 2,000 (2000/ 0.2), someone earning £35k only has to earn £2,564 gross salary to earn the £880 (880/ 0.78).

If you refuse to accept that tax rates and subsidies make this substantial difference to net income which means that a gross salary figure is meaningless, despite all of the evidence and calculations provided to you which prove that they do, then I don’t think there is any possibility of a rational discussion with you.

Edited

Whats incorrect? I'm talking about myself not some mythical "they". 35k income and only receive child benefit (you want to swap 25 pound for 180k salary?)
35k isnt even that low I know people a lot worse off than me so there's no "only" about it and im Not looking for sympathy just explaining my own situation seeing as you're hellbent on saying everyone with less than 50k income is getting bucket loads of benefits

InPraiseOfIdleness · 01/05/2025 15:12

Samslaundry · 01/05/2025 14:55

Whats incorrect? I'm talking about myself not some mythical "they". 35k income and only receive child benefit (you want to swap 25 pound for 180k salary?)
35k isnt even that low I know people a lot worse off than me so there's no "only" about it and im Not looking for sympathy just explaining my own situation seeing as you're hellbent on saying everyone with less than 50k income is getting bucket loads of benefits

And yet you accuse me of poor reading comprehension. The mind boggles.

InPraiseOfIdleness · 01/05/2025 15:19

Samslaundry · 01/05/2025 14:55

Whats incorrect? I'm talking about myself not some mythical "they". 35k income and only receive child benefit (you want to swap 25 pound for 180k salary?)
35k isnt even that low I know people a lot worse off than me so there's no "only" about it and im Not looking for sympathy just explaining my own situation seeing as you're hellbent on saying everyone with less than 50k income is getting bucket loads of benefits

Who has said anything about your personal situation? I haven’t seen a single person do that. You haven’t provided enough information for anyone to do an analysis of that. Given your repeated posts I offered to do so if you wish to provide the personal data required which would be whether you are single or live with a partner, gross earnings for each adult in the household, how many children, total childcare costs, rental/ mortgage costs, the area you live in.

Nobody has made any personal comments to you as far as I can see, despite you making extremely rude and insulting comments to and about other posters.

This really is not the way in which to conduct yourself in a debate about factual matters and economics, or indeed any interaction with anyone else let alone complete strangers.

I understand that you may be very frustrated at your own situation. Many people are, for a variety of (all perfectly reasonable) reasons. However, solutions to these problems won’t be achieved by being so unpleasant and hostile to others and accusing them of commenting about your personal finances when I don’t believe anybody has done so at any point in the thread. I’m happy to be corrected on that if I’ve missed something and you can repost the comment where you believe someone has made comments about your personal financial circumstances but I can’t see anything of the sort from looking through the thread myself. All I see if you being very unpleasant, rude and insulting to other people, swearing and then making nasty and irrelevant comments about disabled children.

InPraiseOfIdleness · 01/05/2025 15:22

Samslaundry · 01/05/2025 14:49

You've done so how? All you've done is accuse me of hating disabled people because I mentioned how I've seen posters claim all on low incomes are getting bucket loads of benefits and then using an example of one family but failing to mention that family has disabled children they receive disability benefits for. Seeing as you've accused me about ten times of hating and resenting disabled children I'd like to see you actually explain how and saying "I never mentioned disabled children in my calculations" isnt an explanation seeing as my original comment wasn't in response to any of your ramblings.

Youve been extremely disingenuous twisting my words trying to make me look like I hate disabled children but I'm apparently the big meanie for saying horseshit ?😂

And if you really think life is so much easier with 30k and its sooo hard on 180k than you are welcome to swap with me 😉

Also none of my posts were about my earnings. I didn’t say I earn £180k. I might earn substantially more or less than that. I’m not the OP.

I’ve been talking about economic facts and how these impact behaviour and tax revenues and living standards at various different levels of the economy. None of my posts have been about my own situation, so please stop trying to misrepresent things.

InPraiseOfIdleness · 01/05/2025 15:35

InPraiseOfIdleness · 01/05/2025 14:16

That’s incorrect. They receive child benefit, additional childcare funding, tax free childcare and in many cases are also eligible for universal credit if they have childcare costs and/ or pay rent.

There isn’t a cut-off level of income for universal credit. I agree that it is extremely unfair that it funds rent for renters and therefore penalises those who have saved and worked and put themselves at risk by taking a mortgage.

However many households with only £35k income are indeed receiving universal credit, even if they have a mortgage, and they are having 85% of their childcare costs funded while other families who are subjected to 80%+ marginal rates of tax are having to fund childcare costs in full at a cost of over £2000 per month for two children from net pay i.e. at that tax rate they have to earn another £10,000 per month in gross pay to pay this monthly cost and end up with the same disposable income.

Others who don’t qualify for universal credit but get the additional 15 hours per week of childcare funding plus tax free childcare pay £880 on average per month for two children in childcare while someone with a higher gross salary will have to pay over £2000 for the same. But instead of having to earn £10,000 gross salary to receive that 2,000 (2000/ 0.2), someone earning £35k only has to earn £2,564 gross salary to earn the £880 (880/ 0.78).

If you refuse to accept that tax rates and subsidies make this substantial difference to net income which means that a gross salary figure is meaningless, despite all of the evidence and calculations provided to you which prove that they do, then I don’t think there is any possibility of a rational discussion with you.

Edited

Correction! The £880/ 0.72 is £1,222 of gross salary that the £35k earner has to use to pay full time childcare for two children, based on average UK rates. I’d incorrectly divided the 2000 by 0.72 instead of the already-reduced amount of £880 because of the additional 15 hours of childcare funding.

So nursery costs for two children equate to £10,000 per month of gross salary for people who have the “free hours” and “tax-free childcare” withdrawn, sometimes more. Sometimes they have to increase their salary by 50% just to get back to the same net earnings that they had before earning £1 more due to the tax trap at £100k.

Whereas the exact same nursery provision for someone earning £35k will cost them £1,222 per month of gross salary.

For someone on universal credit, the net childcare cost they’d pay after the 30 funded hours and the 85% of childcare funded by universal credit is £165 per month. That will cost them £201 of their gross salary, assuming they are earning enough to pay national insurance and income tax at the basic rate at all.

InPraiseOfIdleness · 01/05/2025 16:17

A couple more articles on the topic, from different sides of the political spectrum:

https://iea.org.uk/blog/the-marginal-gains-from-working-for-uk-families

https://www.resolutionfoundation.org/publications/inconsistent-incentives/

Although both are only partial analyses (because of their opposite political biases) so exclude some of the most extreme effects that don’t fit their narrative, which push the marginal rates at both ends up to much higher percentages than they discuss, for the reasons I’ve explained in earlier posts.

The fact is that if people on completely opposite sides of the political spectrum with opposite agendas are identifying problems which are all part of this same distortion and the disincentives to work that it creates, the economic harm it’s doing through lower workforce participation and tax revenue, then surely at some point enough of the UK electorate need will realise that this is one of the main reasons their own living standards are declining year on year even if they are not personally affected by it in terms of net pay, and will vote for it to be changed because they want to live in a country that has rising living standards and sufficient tax revenues to fund basic services?

Clearly, based on this thread, my hope is ridiculous and this won’t happen. So cheers to more decades of decline.

Inconsistent Incentives • Resolution Foundation

https://www.resolutionfoundation.org/publications/inconsistent-incentives/

InPraiseOfIdleness · 01/05/2025 16:38

Samslaundry · 01/05/2025 13:01

You've already been told by myself and other posters on household incomes 30-35k that we don't get any "top ups" except child benefit (you know it's only 25 pounds right?).

You're so hell bent on your narrative that a household with 180k income is worse off than a household on 30k income it's actually laughable.
And like I said it's not just rich people who have mortgages I've also got a mortgage to pay and benefits do not help out with mortgages. You haven't addressed this though probably too busy deliberately misinterpreting my comments to claim I hate and resent disabled people and rich people it's actually irritating which I'm sure is your intention.

But if you seriously think anything I've said is "attacking disabled people" feel free to report my comments and I'm sure they'll be deleted

I’ve been thinking on this more and trying to figure out why you’re so furious.

You keep saying your household income is £35k, which is below the average UK salary (even if we exclude extra free hours of childcare funding/ tax free childcare/ child benefit). However, if a lone parent and earning this you’d have very good reasons to be frustrated at the system because you’d be being taxed much more than a couple both working who had the same household income.

But you also have said “us” in several of your posts, which implies there are two adults in your household. And you mentioned the child benefit rate for just one child. Therefore, your childcare costs will be quite low given the funded hours and tax free childcare and child benefit you’ll be receiving, and only one child to pay for, and all earnings being either tax free or in the lowest income tax band. Also, if there are two adults in the household, why is your income less than 2 x full time minimum wage (which is £25,397 per person so £50,794 for two adults even if both earn this bare minimum per hour)?

What has happened to the additional £15,794 of earnings that you’d have if you both worked full time, even if you both earn minimum wage?

It’s a bit much to be angry at other people about your financial situation when it’s clear even from the minimal information you posted that at least one of you is choosing to work part time hours. You’re perfectly within your rights to make that choice, but not to then be angry at others who are working as hard as they can full time to get promotions, or have done more training and studied for more qualifications, and therefore obviously will earn more than two people who aren’t even working full time for the minimum wage. Working part time is a luxury and if you’re struggling with money as a result it’s hardly a reason to be cross with other people.

Lauren1983 · 01/05/2025 18:55

The anger is not at people who earn more. It is at the rhetoric that low earners are given vast top ups that bring their wages up by huge amounts. It is the same thing that people on benefits get frustrated with.

I see it time and time again on here. It is not particularly on this thread but is something that pops up all the time on Mumsnet. As I said before you are using facts and figures but these posters aren't.

Kitte321 · 01/05/2025 20:33

Thanks for trying @InPraiseOfIdleness but sadly, many just don’t want to acknowledge the ridiculous inequities in the current UK tax system. Inequity that disincentives high earners by penalising earnings to the point where it COSTS a person to earn more.
The cliff edges desperately need to be addressed and some benefits made universal or we will continue in a spiral
of economic decline, reducing productivity and brain drain.
The situation with childcare and the loss of funded hours and tax free childcare at 100k is a perfect example. You would have to earn £159,000 to compensate for this loss if you have 2 children in nursery.
How can anyone think that situation makes sense?

Housebuyingfamily · 01/05/2025 21:14

Indeed, thanks for trying @InPraiseOfIdleness but I fear it’s a bit like trying to explain architecture to a dog

Lauren1983 · 01/05/2025 21:37

IwasDueANameChange · 30/04/2025 08:22

A lot of the people who come on here and say "we've got a 30k household income and we have 2 holidays a year and a 3 bed semi in the south east" are eother talking shite or not giving the full picture.
They are typically leaving out that:

  • they receive benefit top ups which hugely boost their post tax income
  • the house is a social home
  • the rent is paid by UC
  • They are mortgage free
  • they have no children still home/no childcare costs
  • they live in the "south east" but in a much cheaper/deprived area (eg jaywick is technically in the south east!!)

Just to be clear I am not disagreeing with most of the points InPraiseOfIdleness has said. This was the post I originally responded to. All I stated was our 30k income is accurate and doesn't include top ups/social housing/rent paid/any form of UC and that plenty of households do get by on this sort of income or indeed less.

I am not commenting on tax levels, tapers etc.

Unthinkablebuttrue · 01/05/2025 21:45

MarmeladeKing · 29/04/2025 22:33

We don't earn as much but apparently we are in the top tier of earners. We have nice holidays but that is it in terms of lavish luxuries, 9 year old car, no designer brands, no iPhones, no meals out unless on holiday, no takeaways, 1 trip a year to the theatre or a concert, etc. A day out involves transport, entry tickets and a picnic from tesco (or M&S!) etc yet I see families on days out spending seemingly without thought in the gift shops and in the cafes etc and just don't understand how we are considered very high earners. I am happy with my life so I am not complaining but I do wonder how other people afford to be frivolous in their spending when we can't.

My conclusion is that it is because we are both employed rather than self employed. So everything we earn is taxed (heavily), nothing is hidden from the tax man. I think that the income declared by many people running their own companies or self employed is just the tip of their income iceberg. If you only declare half of your income then you have effectively just doubled the half you didn't declare as you don't lose half of it to tax. So the lifestyle of a £100k family who are PAYE can be achieved at a much lower declared income level if it is not all properly taxed.

I think there must be a huge number of people appearing with much lower income in the stats of household income levels, who are actually,secretly much richer. They are just paying considerably less tax than they should be because otherwise it really doesnt make any sense.

Edited

Yep, I think you've nailed it. And actually, it really annoys me. I am completely behind the concept of me myself being taxed for the greater good but I feel really disappointed to think that the tax burden is not carried fairly across society. And it explains so many of those Range Rovers, extensions, and trips to Disneyland... Ugh. Raging now!

Lauren1983 · 01/05/2025 21:52

Also my original point was the government think 30k is enough money to raise a child. We are expected to cut our cloth to suit and therefore that applies to everyone above this income. The government do not assess on outgoings and only use incomings.

There is a valid argument around childcare as that is not really a choice so on balance it should be universal. There is an irony in that neither myself nor most of the low earners I know actually used the 'free' hours. People seem to prefer family or alternative shifts. Maybe we should be able to 'pass it to someone who needs it'?!

Housing though is a relatively balanced playing field. We have a smaller mortage as our place is small. We get no help towards paying it. If we lived in a larger place we still wouldn't get help.

Unthinkablebuttrue · 01/05/2025 22:04

InPraiseOfIdleness · 30/04/2025 13:41

I think this is what people do not understand.

Many people will see a salary that is several times theirs and multiply up the net pay assuming it is the same. It isn’t.

Let’s compare a lone parent earning £180,000 to a couple earning the average UK salary each. Let’s assume each family has two young children to support.

£180,000 salary is a net pay of £8,932 per month assuming no student loan repayments (unlikely for those earning at this level) and no pension contributions (which would be irresponsible). Factoring in a 15% pension contribution and a student loan on Plan 2, net pay is £6,549.

Someone earning this amount will have no personal allowance, no tax free childcare, 15 funded hours for each child withdrawn, no child benefit. The average cost of a full time nursery place in England is now £239 per week (after deducting the universal 15 funded hours) so this is £12,425 per year or £1,035 per month, per child. For two children, £2,070. So the lone parent’s net pay is now £4,479. Bear in mind also that nursery costs are significantly higher in more expensive areas - at least 50% higher than average and sometimes more, so the net income after tax and childcare is likely far lower than this in reality as the childcare costs in expensive areas where there are good jobs are much higher.

The average UK full time salary as of 2024 was £37,430. Again, with a 15% pension contribution net pay is £2,165. So for a couple both earning average UK salary and making decent pension contributions their net income is £4,330. However, this couple will receive child benefit of £2,252 per year (£188 per month) tax free as well. They also receive an additional 15 funded hours per child at nursery which means they’ll only pay £127 per week per child for nursery care, and this is reduced by 20% through tax free childcare to £102 equating to £881 per month for both children. Their net income after tax and childcare is £3,637.

The difference in net income after tax and childcare costs between the couple with two children both earning the average UK full time salary and a lone parent earning £180,000 is, on average per the above, £4,479 - £3,637 = £842.

Yet people assume this person must be super rich, taking extravagant holidays, having children in private school (not a chance on that salary!) or mismanaging their money if they are finding things financially challenging.

Given that most people earning £180,000 per year will be living in very expensive areas of the country and having to pay very high mortgages or rents. If they move further away childcare would be impossible and commuting costs would take up most of the additional money, anyway. In 2024, the average monthly mortgage payment for a home in greater London was £2,340 (and that figure is skewed by people who bought a long, long time ago and therefore have very low mortgages now, so for a family with young children the real figure is likely much higher, but let’s go with this lower estimate for the illustration).

The lone parent’s net income after this average mortgage payment for an average kind of home is therefore £3,637 - £2,340 = £1,297. That is what they have left from their £180,000 salary after tax, childcare and housing costs (if they are lucky). From this they must pay Council Tax, utilities, commuting costs, food, clothing, insurance, house maintenance etc.

Hardly a life of luxury.

Meanwhile the couple can live anywhere in the country, where there is much cheaper housing and childcare is less expensive, even food in the shops is cheaper. The average UK mortgage payment across the UK is £1,441. So after their tax, childcare and mortgage payment they can have £3,637 - £1,441 = £2,196 left for their Council tax, utilities, commuting costs (likely lower as they can work locally given they only need to earn the average salary to achieve this standard of living), food, clothing, insurance, house maintenance etc.

It is therefore very apparent that a couple both earning average UK salaries are likely to be vastly better off than a lone parent earning £180,000 per year, with almost twice as much disposable income left after tax, childcare and housing costs.

The biggest problem with these discussions is that many people just do not seem to comprehend how redistributive the UK system is already, and how much is is absolutely hammering those who earn these higher salaries by means-testing all family support and taxing them marginal rates than in some income brackets exceed 100% when you factor in student loans and childcare funding withdrawal.

Then there is the fact that the couple might be able to work their hours around each other so that they don’t need full time nursery for their children, or even any nursery at all if they work opposite shifts. Meanwhile, the lone parent is trying to do everything they do in 48 hours in 24 hours, paying way more in tax and being left with less disposable income than them despite earning a gross salary of 2.5 what the couple earn combined. And anybody who thinks that earning that kind of money doesn’t come with huge demands, stress and sacrifices and a lack of time for home is kidding themselves, yet this person is expected to sacrifice their time with their children (who only have one parent) to keep paying these extortionate rates of tax to help other families who have two parents and twice as much time to split between earning and caring, yet told they shouldn’t access the childcare funding etc. that they pay for themselves.

I think there is an immense amount of financial illiteracy and people simply do not comprehend how much higher earners pay in tax and assume it’s a similar proportion to what they pay from their salaries. It isn’t.

Two minimum wage earners working full time, also with two young children will earn £25,397 each so £50,794 in total. If we include a 15% pension contributions for each of them as well but no student loan - since you don’t need a degree to get a minimum wage job - their net pay is £1,563 each so £3,126 per month.

If we run these figures through a benefit calculator (the £2,116 gross earnings each before tax and NI, and the £317 per month each pension contribution), and add the average greater London rent of £2,026 per month and the Council Tax Band for an average UK property, it states that this couple will receive £522 per week i.e. £2,262 per month in universal credit. Their net income is now £3,126 + £2,262 = £5,388. They then pay their rent of £2,062 so have £3,276 left after tax and housing costs, plus universal credit. They will also receive £43.30 of child benefit per week, like the couple on average wages who have a mortgage property but in a cheaper part of the UK. This is £188 per month, so they have £3,276 + £188 = £3,464 left to fund childcare, food and other living expenses. Also, because they claim universal credit, 85% of their childcare costs are funded through universal credit, so it costs them next to nothing. They are therefore very significantly better off after tax and childcare than the lone parent working crazy hours to earn £180,000 to try to provide their children with a decent life. And they have 48 hours per day to take a leisurely approach to work and home life, two parents available to juggle home life and spend time with the children, and have more disposable income than the person who has sacrificed an enormous amount to train and work crazy hours to earn the £180k salary. Those kinds of jobs don’t just fall into people’s laps randomly.

Yet all the time we see these posts saying that people earning those amounts must be living immensely wealthy lifestyle. I bet they haven’t done the above calculations and realised that actually a couple on minimum wage in London would have far more disposable income.

At some point people will need to realise why all the people in these earnings brackets are emigrating, cutting their working hours, or retiring early (depending on age). A cash cow will stop producing milk if you milk it dry. If there’s no incentive to work any more (and indeed your net income will go down if you do so with marginal tax rates for people with children in some brackets exceeding 100%) then who would do this? There’s a difference between being socially minded and a total mug.

There’s a good argument for taxing the super-wealthy more morally, but it’s incredibly difficult to do without actually causing more economic damage without international cooperation, which will not happen. The people who are not wealthy, but work incredibly hard and have become moderately successful have been carrying this country for nearly two decades now but have nothing left to give and are giving up or shipping out.

What the UK population needs to realise is that the difference between the tax systems in other countries that have the service levels they covet and the UK system is not that what they deem to be “the rich” pay more (the rich, have capital, they don’t work for income). The difference is that in other northern European countries the low and middle earners pay a far higher percentage of income in income tax. People in the £75k- £150k salary ranges in the UK in particular pay some of the very highest tax rates in the entire world for that earnings level. You can’t get more from them now, as the above demonstrates. So the choices that at some point people will have to face are 1) accept a much lower level of services in the UK; or 2) everyone paying a much higher rate of tax, including low and middle earners (an increase of probably around 8% to make things comparable with other European countries with better standards of living).

But nobody wants to hear that. And nobody’s interested in maths. So we’ll carry on with the population squabbling amongst themselves and ignoring the large, grey animal with a big bottom and oversized ears and just hoping it goes away until even more painful decisions have to be made down the line when the national debt becomes unserviceable and all of our talents and ambitious young people have left.

Wow, who are you?! Really sobering facts there. And when I take this info in conjunction with that if another poster who talked about hidden untaxable income said , it really made me think. It kind of looks like a reverse if everything I ever held to be true: going to uni will just saddle you with debt and lock you in a taxable job, whereas getting a trade means you earn quicker, with no debt, and are beyond the taxman's reaches...

Masmavi · 01/05/2025 22:29

The number of people on MN who are living comfortable lives with families yet constantly concerned with what other people earn, how many cars they have, how many holidays they take, how they parent their children, what choices they make..,it really must take up so much mental energy being envious. Are you happy? If not work out why and change it. That’s it.

MyGhastIsFlabbered · 02/05/2025 07:36

The thing is though, having a well paid job gives you many more choices than those of us on the breadline. So I’m still not going to weep for someone who can afford a £15k holiday as the OP was posting about feeling hard done by.

fungibletoken · 02/05/2025 07:48

I haven't read the full thread but I think a lot of it comes down to appetite for (financial) risk. There are people who will absolutely max out their budget and make sure every penny is allocated - including money they're entitled to borrow on credit cards, mortgages, PCP car deals etc. On the other end of the scale there are people who want to max out their savings and pensions, so need to leave a buffer. If you budget on a monthly basis then that difference in approach could affect your quality of life significantly, and mean lower take home pay is not so important.

From what you've said I expect you're not in the former camp OP!

InPraiseOfIdleness · 02/05/2025 10:04

Unthinkablebuttrue · 01/05/2025 22:04

Wow, who are you?! Really sobering facts there. And when I take this info in conjunction with that if another poster who talked about hidden untaxable income said , it really made me think. It kind of looks like a reverse if everything I ever held to be true: going to uni will just saddle you with debt and lock you in a taxable job, whereas getting a trade means you earn quicker, with no debt, and are beyond the taxman's reaches...

One of these apparently very tedious economist people who should just be quiet because people have “had enough of experts” on any topic… 🫣