Is my friend outrageously entitled in her expectations?

[MariadeiMiracoli]

I moved to my current town 18 years ago and got to know a woman renting a house on the cheap from a local who was off travelling. She was an interesting woman who'd given up her teaching job after a few years and gone travelling to SE Asia and South America, teaching English. Very laid back, getting by on benefits and subs from friends and family. Used to do a few hours at the local pub or shop for cash in hand and when she'd built up enough, buy an air ticket and take off to Hawaii or India for a month or two, picking up bar work or sleeping on the beach when she got there, always anticipating that someone would help her out.

About 12 years ago she met a man and moved in with him in Devon. It didn't work out and she ended up in a caravan and, when she turned 55, was housed in a flat in a 55+ development. But she's unhappy: there's noise, one of her neighbours drinks and plays music loud, another has serious MH issues. I visited her there a couple of years ago and thought it was actually rather nice: smart modern flat in a very desirable Devon town and no issues on the days I was there. I've said to her that even in the smartest private flats you can end up living next door to someone noisy but she says she's not prepared to put up with it.

She wants a bungalow with two bedrooms, so she can have a yoga/ meditation/ craft room. She wants a south-facing garden she can tend. It's got to be within walking distance of a decent town, but somewhere quiet and peaceful with a green outlook. And parking because she has a car. She's found a number of HAs (one here near me, where she used to live, one where she lives now and a third in the Bristol area) that have a tiny number of properties that fit her bill. All of them have been built for disabled people. She's been driving around inspecting them and knows precisely which ones she's after.

She's asked for my support to try and get one of her chosen properties in this area. I'm not sure what that will entail, but I suspect it'll involve spinning the truth to match the HA criteria. I've told her very clearly that I don't think there's any way she'll actually get one of these properties and she needs to compromise, but she says that if you don't ask firmly you don't get. Is this how it is now? I don't know what to make of it.

You should suggest communal living to her OP. You said she came and mowed your lawn when you were ill, so maybe she is not averse to "helping out" if it is not perceived as work. There are communities who do this in Wales and around Bristol. She would be "off-grid" with like-minded people.

I should add that she's started saying this more recently, in the last year or two, as her dissatisfaction with her current housing has grown. When we first met 18 years ago I assumed that perhaps she had family money or an inheritance or something that enabled her to live as she did: frugally and making different choices to most people. I'm not sure she did. I think probably her mum sent money occasionally, if she was worried about her, but my friend didn't seem to mind living for a few weeks in her car, or one one occasion in a tent, till the next door opened for her. She didn't complain about it, just took it in her stride, and I've never felt under any pressure to rescue her or give her money.

We're not close friends. I'm very different in my approach to life. I'm not even vaguely spiritual or whatever. But when we talk or meet she is pleasant and positive and funny and has some tales to tell: she's not someone who is always grumbling or miserable. She helps people out and as I say, helped me out when I was immobilised without expectation of recompense. There's no envy of my security. She does her thing, I do mine. This display of entitlement has taken me by surprise, because it's not something I've seen before.

Someone upthread mentioned drink and drugs. No, absolutely not. Vegan, no alcohol, will only take a paracetamol in an emergency.

She does seem over entitled but then a lot of people are these days. And to some degree she is right. If you don't have sharp elbows you won't get what you want.

Has she actually been a bad friend to you ? It doesn't sound like it. She's helped you out in the past. Just that her lifestyle and outlook is different to yours, and she is having to come to terms with the consequences of that.

If I was in this situation and they really were a good friend I would be willing to help them. But I would make it clear that I would not lie or engage in any subterfuge in order to do so.

Of course such a person may take offence at the idea that you thought they wanted you to lie for them, and then use that offence as leverage over you.

I'm not sure communal living would suit her. She wants to be quiet and alone a lot of the time. But I could suggest it. How would she find these places?

If your friend just wants a reference to say you've been friends for X years and would like to see her when she's living nearby, fine, presuming you would like to see more of her. Anything else would be "no sorry, I don't have any visibility of that so can't write it in a letter".

If she doesn't meet criteria then she won't get it, but that isn't up to you so leave her to it really. You might want to suggest HA swap schemes to her; I used to know know one person who did this mad sort of multi family swap to get into one place and two more swaps (one of them I think was again multiple families) to get to where she wanted to be. Slightly disruptive for the kids in the short term, but she somehow went from a crap flat in a bad area to a nice small house in a different nicer area (several total location changes though, sizing down and then up again). It was years ago and I think the bedroom tax played a part in it, but swaps are still possible now. Your friend seems like the type who could work out how to game the system well enough to get something she likes much more.

Yes she is.

But some people just are. I used to be surprised by people who think social housing should be a bespoke service but I'm not any more.

This sounds like a great idea for her. Here are some links:

cohousing.org.uk/
diggersanddreamers.org.uk/
www.wearetown.co.uk/cohousing/
www.communityledhousing.london/projects
www.housinglin.org.uk/Topics/browse/Housing/HousingforOlderPeople/Cohousing/

Some people just don't seem to have that level of consciousness of the realities of life or are poor planners, or think their ship will come in, or they live in the now and it works until it doesn't. Other people through no fault of their own work hard and save and then fall ill and lose their jobs and are turfed from their homes, or their marriage breaks down and they lose their housing. Some people are one pay packet away from complete disaster.

I think it is good that we don't just send everyone off to workhouses these days. But I do find it objectionable when people who are in this position through their own blithe mismanagement have unrealistic demands, like this twit.

Thanks very much. Do they really want older women, though? I guess she can investigate at least.

I can't think why they wouldn't want an older woman. Presumably she can cook, garden, babysit, tell stories... personally I would hate having a raft of people on top of us, but those who like that sort of thing might like your friend.

Giving her options would help if the reality bump of not getting the bungalow is tricky, she sounds like the optimistic type!

She's not going to be able to get those things and you can't help her. Tell her just to apply and cross her fingers. It's very unlikely they'll give this to her.
Maybe if the neighbour noise is terrible they'll offer her another flat, but bungalows with extra room for art studios and spare bedrooms are not necessary for a single woman.

It sounds like she's never paid any taxes so frankly she should be grateful for what she does have.

I can hear her saying to you what she said to me. Something along the lines of 'What's the problem with aiming for what you really want and what would bring you happiness, instead of just settling for what you're offered?

In all honestly, I think your friend has always been able to get what she wanted relatively quickly. So to her it's probably a case of sitting it out for a little bit and 'pulling some strings'.
It's going to be hard once she realises that her luck has run out. The world is a very different place to 20 years ago and I fear she's failed to move along with the times. It could very well be poor MH but I fear some is self inflicted. She's been living in a lovely bubble that is about to burst!

The reason she wants a bungalow is that she wants to be able to shut herself away from people at times. She currently lives in a flat, with someone above and people on both sides. She hears them and their TVs (they're older and they have their TVs up loud) and residents who need support bang on her door day and night. But I suppose if everyone in the communal housing was like-minded and similar to her, perhaps it wouldn't be such an issue.

My friends were from good backgrounds and their parents completely subbed them . This was a lifestyle choice- one they could absolutely drop no problem, it was an extremely cringey anti establishment vibe but they moved into someone’s home rent free and illegally and wouldn’t as the owner must have been rich ….
They (I’m hoping) are absolutely mortified now they are older and how would they feel about this with their house . It in no way compares to people who end up in challenging situations often through lack of support. Often the types of people the op is talking about were living off hand outs from parents and then inheritance and social benefits and leeching off others

Yes! I have no personal experience of it and it doesn't appeal to me. But my friends sister used to do this in Bristol. She was in her 20's but there were all ages. They sounded like a very welcoming bunch of open-minded and kind people. Grew their own veg, composted stuff, cooked together and for each other.

There are likely to be some as there are lots of different schemes; an AI search on a few criteria suggested about 20 e.g.
https://www.thresholdcentre.org.uk/about?hl=en-GB.
She would need to research if she likes the idea. Some will undoubtedly be noisy extrovert communities full of families, others will be quiet. Some require home purchase and others have rental, work, or other funding models.

I'd like my waist back, but sometimes we just have to accept we are where we are. You are a kind and thoughtful friend, but she is entitled and unrealistic and you would do well to step away from her fantasy of what she should have.

This 💯. I’ve known people like this my whole life, full of social justice lectures when they are absolutely screwing the system . Often from “good “ backgrounds and funded by the parents and family they “rebelled” against until they die and they can’t milk them anymore. It’s often way more calculated than people think but they get away with it by being seen as “characters” or “free-spirts” hence why they’d never live in a country with no social supports . See English people in Ireland who moved here in the 1980’s, many of them still here (all from well to do backgrounds), many of whom squatted on land that wasn’t theirs and got away with it🤷‍♀️ Such hypocrisy

Don’t get involved if it means lying about her “disability”.

I have a very good friend who’s husband is genuinely disabled (cerebral palsy, been in a wheelchair all his life) and they really struggled to get a bungalow that was accessible and suitable for his needs. They’re not even allowed a disabled parking spot outside their house so it’s easier for him to get in and out of his car and in and out of the house. Then there’s people like this that (if that’s what she’s doing) seem to feel entitled and willing to lie to get when they want.

Wow. I’d love a south facing peaceful garden and a spare room, no noisy neighbours, and a driveway, but I had to mortgage my ex council house and now can’t afford to move unless I don’t actually live at all apart from paying a mortgage….yes she’s entitled.

I’m not sure how she’s thinking you’ll assist her in her application? Surely only notes from GP/SS etc would count?

What stage is her idea at ? Has she any idea what kind of disabilities the people in her ideal properties have ? Has she asked the Housing Associations how people are typically placed there ? Or is it still a fairy tale idea of getting a lovely house with a garden just by asking for it forcefully ?

@MistressoftheDarkSide i’m really sorry to hear about your dad. Strength to you for the fight ahead.

Has she any idea what kind of disabilities the people in her ideal properties have ?
Could be wrong of course, but it seems unlikely to me that OP is being asked to help remove a leg.

If everyone who had a depressive episode during lockdown thereby acquired the right to a spare room and a garden, the map of the UK would look radically different by now. I don't think any housing association will feel obliged to accommodate your friend on the basis that her mental health might deteriorate in the future, and there is nothing you can do to influence that decision even if you wanted to. If she were my friend I think I might buy her a window box or one of those roll-up yoga mats that can be stowed behind the sofa, and tell her that was the most I could do to assist her.