AIBU to ask what you think should happen with Trans men?

[Akiddleydiveytoo]

OK, I know this is an emotive subject that people feel passionately about so I'm prepared to don my hard hat here in anticipation of the backlash I'm likely to receive. I'm genuinely not trying to be goady though - I am genuinely interested in trying to understand people's opinions on this.

Since the Supreme Court ruling last week there has been lots of discussion about trans women and the impact that the ruling has on their rights to access female only spaces. There has been less debate, however, on the impact that this ruling has on trans men. Surely, if it is ruled that trans women are men, then it follows that trans men are women and should, therefore use women's facilities.

Is this really what women want? A post op trans man who had undergone full gender reassignment surgery would, to ask intents and purpose have a male presenting body complete with muscles, body hair and penis. Would women really be comfortable sharing facilities with such a person. Similarly, should a post op trans woman with breasts and a vagina be forced to share facilities with biological men?

I fully understand and support the need for women to have female only safe spaces and disagree wholeheartedly with trans women competing against biological women in sports due to their genetic advantage but I'm not sure the SC ruling of last week is really the 'triumph' that women's rights activists claim it to be as it presents as many questions as it does answers. I also fear that this judgement will result in single sex spaces being lost altogether as service providers, unable (or unwilling) to comply with all of the legalities and complexities involved, just get rid of single sex provisions in favour of unisex/ gender neutral facilities.

As I said, I've seen lots of debate about this over the last week but, for me, I still have a ton of unanswered questions so I was just wondering what others opinions are.

I don't want men in spaces where I am vulnerable such as changing rooms and toilets. I understand that for some, this is very confusing, but there we are.

Sigh
Transmen are women, they look like women, move like women. They will not have a penis.
Therefore they are welcome in women only spaces
Funny how TM are so important now having been largely ignored by TAs for many many years

A third space should have been created.

Women and girls don’t want men in their private spaces. Women should have never been forced to have intimate exams or share wards / cells with biological men without their consent or in fear of being called phobic.

Trans men very rarely come up because honestly they don’t seem to cause issues maybe because they are biological women and don’t push and shove till they are heard like men they also don’t commit violent crimes at the same rate as bio men again. Trans men don’t scare or tend to harm women.

Just a comment on how likely these women are to have penises... Very few as you know have this surgery. I have just taken courage in both hands and googled 'trans man penis' and been treated to a load of photos of prosthetic penises and a few horrendous botched surgeries. No one is going to be confused.

Nobody guards the toilets now and checks what is between legs to allow entry, and those body parts especially don't get shown in women's toilets. It's rude in the mens to eye up another guy's tadger so typically also not obvious what they do or don't have. So rarely would anyone know if the person has the expected body parts, in reality most people can go where they most fit in at moment.

I've encountered men in ladies toilets before because they misunderstood the signage... amusing not annoying. I'd rather nobody, no strangers, heard me wee, being male or female doesn't really matter in comparison.

On balance, I suspect my life is too short to dwell on this. Toilets: I especially don't care if they are European style, floor to ceiling separation. Maybe that style of toilet is what will become the norm.

Only one of the swimming pools I go to has women regularly appearing in the nude, which is a choice they make & others can avoid as they prefer. Most pools have "mixed" changing rooms so you don't see any nudity except on under 5s.

I support protecting women's sport as single sex and domestic violence shelters need options, too, but this obsession about monitoring who uses which toilets... omg. Leave it.

There is no statistical evidence to support any risk to any woman in spaces like changing rooms and toilets, from trans women, men pretending to be trans women, or lesbians. These are the three audiences that could potentially have a sexual interest in women. There is no evidence, anywhere, to suggest that there is a threat.

I believe that some services should be strictly restricted by sex - shelters, some support groups, prisons, sports and corporate board make-up immediately come to mind. But as a woman, I am more than happy to share a loo or a changing room with a member of the trans community - either a trans man or a trans woman. The whole debate around loos is ridiculous quite frankly, bordering on hysterical. Trans women have been using women's loos quietly to themselves for decades and now my mum has been radicalised by the Daily Mail into believing a woman with a beard is going to rape her and won't use the shower block on a campsite she regularly visits, even though each unit within the block has a locked door with its own sink, loo, shower and drying area inside. The pearl clutching is insane.

I am absolutely on the side of women but I did wonder about someone I vaguely know. FtoM transition, no idea about surgery but legal name change and GR certificate. Looks like a shortish man, truly. if I didn't know, I wouldn't know.
I think if this person uses the men's loos, it will be fine but technically, that person is a girl and a cheek swab would show that. (No I'm not advocating cheek swabs to use the loo).

Have you not seen the performative photos? Look at me posing in my tiny skirt and fishnets in the women's loo? No thanks.

Yet according to the new ruling it’s the biological sex that determines what a person is! Even having undergone gender reassignment surgery the person is still a man in the eyes of the law! However, who would know if a trans man who had undergone surgery ? He would look like a woman and no one would know or question him using a female toilet, but an obvious man wearing a dress would rightly be excluded.

There are plenty of performative photos like that from cis women. It's not for me, I think it's ridiculous, but it's not a threat to anyone.

Threat or not, don't want them there because if asked to leave, they could become a threat. So, no.

I don’t understand the issue with using accessible toilets.

I have nearly exclusively used them for the past 3 years as have young children and it often is the location of baby change. Never had a problem with finding a loo. Never had a problem with using this loo. Only once opened the door to a waiting disabled person (in a wheelchair) once out of probably 100+ uses. I would probably say one in every 5-10 uses I have opened the door to another parent with small children.

The only place I can see problem with this is on hospital wards where single rooms are not appropriate if high risk - ie. Post surgery where you are often on wards for visibility. That is the only place I can see a problem.

Why would you ask them to leave if they're not a threat?

“Cis” women are doing it for the photo with their mate or because they look good in an outfit often.

Trans women tend to be doing it as part of fetishisation when it’s the type that PP mentioned outfits wise.

Don't want a man in the loos, getting off on the idea that he's there.

Happy to share with transmen ie women. Most are tiny and wispy with no penises or male aggression.

You often have to ask for a key, and as an able-bodied person it feels deeply wrong to be using a facility that someone who uses a wheelchair or who has condition like IBS could urgently need.

Trans Men already do for the most part use Women’s facilities. You don’t hear about Trans Men in Men’s prisons, or Trans Men in Men’s rape Groups, or Trans Men in Men’s sport. They either use Women’s facilities/services because they are women or they self exclude because they cannot compete in sports against Men, if they aren’t taking Testosterone then they compete in the Women’s events.

As women, I'm more than happy to have them use the correct facilities for their sex.
The "big, tall, hairy transmen" that people keep going on about online, doesn't really marry up to my personal observation, which is that few of them pass.

Literally no evidence that this is happening. It's in your head.

What about men in bars, looking at you and thinking lustful thoughts. Should they be banned?

We should make decisions based on evidence of risk, not things we don't like the idea of.

Yes transmen dont have the ridiculous sense of entitlement.
Because they are women.

Sigh
Because he would look like a Transwoman not a woman
And even if a TM cuts her boobs off or mutilates her genitals she is a woman and looks like one.

Women and girls are more likely to be assaulted in mixed sex spaces than single spaces.

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/women/sexual-assault-unisex-changing-rooms-sunday-times-women-risk-a8519086.html

You can generally identify transmen with spidey senses, as women are primed to spot who's a potential threat. Body language and female socialisation goes a long way in facilitating this. They're usually shorter, have an attempt at a beard and move differently. They are often accompanying a non feminine woman and give off best friends vibes.

But not by trans women, or men pretending to be trans women.