AIBU to ask what you think should happen with Trans men?

[Akiddleydiveytoo]

OK, I know this is an emotive subject that people feel passionately about so I'm prepared to don my hard hat here in anticipation of the backlash I'm likely to receive. I'm genuinely not trying to be goady though - I am genuinely interested in trying to understand people's opinions on this.

Since the Supreme Court ruling last week there has been lots of discussion about trans women and the impact that the ruling has on their rights to access female only spaces. There has been less debate, however, on the impact that this ruling has on trans men. Surely, if it is ruled that trans women are men, then it follows that trans men are women and should, therefore use women's facilities.

Is this really what women want? A post op trans man who had undergone full gender reassignment surgery would, to ask intents and purpose have a male presenting body complete with muscles, body hair and penis. Would women really be comfortable sharing facilities with such a person. Similarly, should a post op trans woman with breasts and a vagina be forced to share facilities with biological men?

I fully understand and support the need for women to have female only safe spaces and disagree wholeheartedly with trans women competing against biological women in sports due to their genetic advantage but I'm not sure the SC ruling of last week is really the 'triumph' that women's rights activists claim it to be as it presents as many questions as it does answers. I also fear that this judgement will result in single sex spaces being lost altogether as service providers, unable (or unwilling) to comply with all of the legalities and complexities involved, just get rid of single sex provisions in favour of unisex/ gender neutral facilities.

As I said, I've seen lots of debate about this over the last week but, for me, I still have a ton of unanswered questions so I was just wondering what others opinions are.

Nobody has really answered the question.

Say a transman HAS had bottom surgery (ok ok it’s not a penis, but it still is a rape weapon and can be used as such) and they’re physically stronger and muscular because of testosterone. What toilets should they be using? Genuinely interested because this is the one aspect of this SC ruling that is a bit of a grey area for me.

Transmen are women, but what if they have had a surgically created ‘penis’ (or whatever you want to call it) and they DO physically have the ability to rape us?

Can someone help me out with this please as I’m struggling to find my concrete view on this

Why dont you wait until you are questioned before demanding that men are allowed into womens spaces?
No need to jump the shark.

Of course it is. All businesses can refuse to admit anyone they like, right now, for any reason. We cherry pick by risk and need. Women's refuges and women's support groups should have the right to offer sex-based services, and should make it crystal clear whether they are trans inclusive or not. Women's prison's should be sex-based, with separate provision for trans men. Same with male prisons, with separate provision for trans women. It's a ballache, but we have to protect rapists and child killers from the general prison population so there's precedent within the system for keeping people safe. Women's sports should be sex-based.

Loos and changing rooms are low risk and high need and based on the evidence should be accessible to all. As someone else upthread observed, I don't want to see naked vulva in a changing room any more than naked penis. We can all manage ourselves - as we have been for years and years.

Nope, we’d still know you were a woman. I have plenty of extremely tall female friends, you’re not unique being statuesque.

It's not my fault a horrific segment of men can't keep it in their pants and away from women and kids that don't want to be raped.

Why should one single person be raped, just because you want to use the women's toilets? because that's what you're asking for.

You're increasing the risk for all of us by demanding entry for you.

By proxy, you're asking for entry for rapists too because lowering the bar for you, lowers the bar and entry point for them too.

But you think you're needs trumps women's and children's needs for safety.

You think the location you urinate in, is more important than a child being raped.

Glad you've been so clear.

As I said (nothing new), I already have been. And more often get serious side eye.

So if this person entered a women’s toilet you were in you’d know straightaway they were female?

If I break down the statistics on how many Trans people there are vs how many I see on an average day I am pretty confident I am spotting over 90% of them.
Just because nobody points and screams "MAN/WOMAN" at them its not the same as passing

Oh well, women and girls have been raped in safe spaces by men pretending to be women. But by all means obsess about side eyes.
We cant legislate for a tiny minority.

Trans identified women don’t have penises. They might get challenged in the ladies but that’s no reason to throw away all other women’s rights to privacy, dignity and safety. It’s usually fairly obvious that they’re women

If you brought a photo of that person into a womens toilet I may well be unsure
Bring the actual person and yes, I would know

MIL is around 6ft and not a fan of shaving anything
As far as I am aware she has never been accused of being a man

Generally agree, but here I disagree. It is profoundly important to me, for example, that Muslim women or sexual assault survivors etc feel comfortable in changing rooms and toilets whatever the real risk is.

Trans is a mental disorder to which society should not be pandering. We don't tell anorexics that it's OK to starve themselves. We don't tell self-harmers that it's fine to cut themselves. Why should we pander to the extraordinarily self-mutilating delusion than is trans?

🤦🏻‍♀️ OK, now slower for the persistently obtuse...

If a person genuinely and unquestionably passes as the opposite sex and walks into the toilet for the opposite sex, goes for a wee, washes their hands and checks their hair on the way put, no one is going to know, suspect or care in reality.

This will mostly.likely only apply to TM who would probably, in those circumstances, continue to use the men's both to avoid the possible conflict and because most women wouldn't relish the idea of making other women feel uncomfortable. Even TM.

So no one will be conducting genital inspections. Your pants are safe.

But.

If a man is hanging around the toilets, he can be challenged. No, women won't do this themselves but places often have security guards. Or she can just leave without being at risk of disciplinary action, say, at work because the TW she walked away from says she made him feel unsafe by taking action that made her feel safer (this has happened).

But toilets are only a small part of it.

This thread is going to fill up with pix of hairy muscly transmen now, that posters are combing the net to find 🙄

IRL most people conform to biological sex. Policy is framed for the majority. Not the tiny minority that defy the trend.

It’s really really not complicated. Toilets, single sex wards in hospitals, some sports and jails are segregated by sex. Mens facilities are for men and women’s facilities are for women. Transwomen are a group of men not a type of woman.

Let’s be honest, if they genuinely pass, they’re going to use the men’s regardless of the judgment. If they don’t pass, then they’re visibly women so what’s the issue? If they don’t pass and want to put themselves at risk in the men’s, that’s up to them, and it’s up to men to police if they want it male-only
for their dignity.

As for “won’t someone think of the butch cis women that are definitely going to be abused now?”, it’s utter tosh. More butch/masculine looking women have been occasionally challenged in the women’s for decades and, while a bit embarrassing, all that ends up happening is she says “I’m a woman”, it’s bleeding obvious from her voice/manner (it’s much easier to tell in person than from an image) that she’s female, everyone feels a bit awkward and then gets on with their day. Do the TRAs genuinely think the only reason butch women are safe in the women’s facilities is because of the TRA misinterpretation of the EA which we didn’t share in the first place, and now it’s been clarified all hell will break loose and we’re going to start accusing every woman with short hair and shirt of being a bloke? Give over. We know they’re women and we are not a risk to each other…on account of us all being women.

The amount of calls I’ve seen on Reddit etc for “big, burly trans men” to go into the women’s and “see how much the TERFs like it” is staggering, and conveniently ignoring the fact that GC people see transmen as women so of course they’re welcome in female spaces.

Yet again it’s men calling for women to be chucked under the bus, except this time it’s men wanting to use gender non-conforming women (ie transmen) as a tool to embarrass, shame, and scare women into allowing males to use women’s facilities because they didn’t get their way.

The fact that TRAs have muddied the waters so much with Stonewall law doesn’t mean that the way things used to work, where people policed facilities based on common sense and without fear of being arrested for transphobic harassment for merely querying someone’s presence or leaving so as not to be alone with them, works just fine.

trans women and the impact that the ruling has on their rights to access female only spaces

They haven't lost any rights, it was never their right, it was their entitlement. Let's be accurate.

All the gender stereotypes. Apparently because I'm 6 foot, with muscles and don't shave my legs, I may be up for being questioned in a toilet (nothing new to be honest but can imagine it's going to get worse).

I have some very tall female friends who are on the more masculine end of the female spectrum.

None has ever been mistaken for a man. By anyone.

Yes, this. The toilets are almost a red herring - or at the very least, they’re a bonus, a silver lining. The importance of the judgement is that single sex spaces like women’s prisons, women’s rape centres, women’s hospital wards will all remain single sex. We might not be able to police toilets to keep all passing transwomen out, but now we can stop the Isla Brysons being incarcerated with vulnerable women.

And as for transmen? They’re women so I couldn’t care less if they access single sex spaces alongside me. Appearance doesn’t matter. As usual, TRAs get it upside down.

I have a question. I am not being goady, I genuinely want to know. If a bio male is taking female hormones, can they actually do anything with their penis? Do the hormones affect the way it functions, sexually?

Trans men are natal women and therefore less likely to commit sexually motivated crimes. Idc where trans men pee because they're not a potential threat.

But anyway. Trans people, both men and women, quietly going about their day, will use their preferred choice, as they have for decades, without issue.

A pre-transition/obviously non-passing trans man (or biological woman) will not want to use the men's toilet anyway, for their own safety. Because men are the fucking problem to everyone, trans or not.

All this will do is prevent any random dude from saying 'I'm a woman' to enter our spaces without challenge. Most people won't care if someone who has been trans and peacefully using the women's loo for the past 40 years continues to do so.

I discovered the Kiwi Farms thread on SRS surgeries and it completely changed my view on the issue.

Fucking butchers.

Here is a video of him, speaking about addiction rather than being trans. He’s Chaz Bono by the way, son of Sonny and Cher. Would you think he was female if you didn’t know?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WGmFKiduuCI&pp=ygUJY2hheiBib25v