AIBU to ask what you think should happen with Trans men?

[Akiddleydiveytoo]

OK, I know this is an emotive subject that people feel passionately about so I'm prepared to don my hard hat here in anticipation of the backlash I'm likely to receive. I'm genuinely not trying to be goady though - I am genuinely interested in trying to understand people's opinions on this.

Since the Supreme Court ruling last week there has been lots of discussion about trans women and the impact that the ruling has on their rights to access female only spaces. There has been less debate, however, on the impact that this ruling has on trans men. Surely, if it is ruled that trans women are men, then it follows that trans men are women and should, therefore use women's facilities.

Is this really what women want? A post op trans man who had undergone full gender reassignment surgery would, to ask intents and purpose have a male presenting body complete with muscles, body hair and penis. Would women really be comfortable sharing facilities with such a person. Similarly, should a post op trans woman with breasts and a vagina be forced to share facilities with biological men?

I fully understand and support the need for women to have female only safe spaces and disagree wholeheartedly with trans women competing against biological women in sports due to their genetic advantage but I'm not sure the SC ruling of last week is really the 'triumph' that women's rights activists claim it to be as it presents as many questions as it does answers. I also fear that this judgement will result in single sex spaces being lost altogether as service providers, unable (or unwilling) to comply with all of the legalities and complexities involved, just get rid of single sex provisions in favour of unisex/ gender neutral facilities.

As I said, I've seen lots of debate about this over the last week but, for me, I still have a ton of unanswered questions so I was just wondering what others opinions are.

Trans men are women. It’s up to men if they let them in their toilets or changing rooms. If they say no, then obviously they should return to women’s toilets and changing rooms.

I am so fed up of all the faux wide eyed posters with their " oh why don't women want men in their spaces" posts like it's 2014. And their whataboutery.

Pull the other one. The slogan was "transwomen are women", the entire debate was about what a woman is and even now in the media it's all transwomen being asked how they feel about it and transwomen pissing in Parliament Square and now threatening to hold a topless campaign in London next month (although to be fair, I'm actually looking forward to that one).

The only reason transmen are getting so much airtime now is so that people can use them to undermine women's single sex spaces like you are doing right now, for the 5 millionth time since last week. And it's all a waste of time, because the transman gotcha was addressed in the original law and again in the SC ruling that clarified it. Go read it if you really want the answer to your question.

In the context of this conversation, cis men is correct, as the class of 'men' also includes trans women and I was seeking to draw the distinction between men whose gender identity reflects their biology, and those that don't. The petty rejection of precise language from those knee deep in the trenches of this culture war is at odds with the insistence of precision around biology.

Gender critics insisting people don't use a word they don't like also spend a lot of their time getting angry about trans activists policing language.

You can't have it all ways. Cis is a valid word. Trans women aren't women. No one can make you use pronouns you don't want to. You can't stop me using accurate language. All these things are true.

I actually don't mind what transmen do. I have transmen family and don't feel like they're encroaching on my space. One uses men toilets in public but only the cubicle, as those minus a dick would struggle to use a urinal.

I guess if one passed heavily as a bloke then I'd much rather they used the men's areas. But there's very limited opportunities to need to disrobe and expose ones genitals to others. I don't want to see naked vulva either?!

Wouldn't it be wise just to have a suite of individual cubicles with floor to ceiling walls and a door so anybody can use them? Same with toilets (though some men do pee on the seat, yuck).

The petty rejection of precise language from those knee deep in the trenches of this culture war is at odds with the insistence of precision around biology.

'precise language' Is it aye?
'cis' is a word dusted off and hauled out to try t make women sound like a subset of some other class of person.
We already have precise language to enable precision around biology. It goes 'man/woman'.

It’s just fact there are men and women

some men are trans women some women are trans men

no need for anything more

It isn't, because perception is part of the Equality Act.

You can be a heterosexual victim of homophobia if the aggressor thinks you are gay. You can be a transwoman and yet be sexually discriminated against if the aggressor thinks you are a woman.

If women using a female-only facility believe a transman is male (even though a transman is a women under the law) it can be proportionate to exclude that transman from that facility under the EA2010.
The Supreme Court ruling specifically mentioned this point.

This leaves transmen who 'pass' as needing to use unisex spaces only. Awkward and a double bind for them, but sometimes choices have consequences. Choose to present as a man, and you might find yourself unwelcome among women-only facilities.

Gender ideology mangles language with these words, which are also offensive.

The Supreme Court is better for clear definitions.

yep, some men are men in skirts, some women are women with bad moustaches. the division remains, men and women.

Feel free to ignore the thread then.

For absolute clarity the word 'cis' is required in conversations like this. It's easier and unambiguous when talking about multiple groups with conflicting needs, rights and agendas. Railing against descriptive words is like shouting at clouds.

Woman/Man/Transwoman/Transman

Ta da!

The Supreme Court hasn't banned gender ideology, or forced people to present in a gendered way that aligns with their biology. It hasn't banned words.

It all starts to get a bit authoritarian Trump-y when we entertain notions like that.

Of all the battles women need to fight, policing accurate language ain't it. If that's the biggest problem we have, we're very lucky indeed.

Oh I won't, because we see what you are doing with your whataboutery.
If you are really genuine and want to learn, go read about what women have been doing- including those I mentioned.

Tran women are men, but they're not cis men.

So many of the issues wouldn’t have happened if self ID hadn’t been pushed as hard as it has been.

They're transwomen ie blokes. It's really not complicated.

Yeah, no, it is never 'required'. 'man' and 'woman' do the work perfectly well.

No threat? Read this https://terfisaslur.com/

At least a woman in the UK will now be able to challenge the presence of a man in a toilet, changing room, therapy session for rape victim

OK, so let's say you see someone in the Women's toilets in a restaurant or a shop who you suspect may be a Transwoman because she is tall, has broad facial features, maybe she's quite muscular. Let's say you take it upon yourself to "challenge" this person and their response is "I'm not Trans, I was born a woman so I have every right to be here and i'm not leaving". What are you going to do next?

I’m saying that the fear of men entering women’s bathrooms / changing rooms etc has been a mainstay of TERF activism for years now, on the basis that, apparently, allowing trans women to use women’s bathrooms gives predatory men the opportunity to access those spaces by pretending to be women. But when you ask TERFs how excluding trans women makes them any safer when those same predatory men could now just claim to be trans men instead, they don’t have an answer. Because none of this is actually about women’s safety at all.

And no, you can’t always tell someone’s biological sex just by looking at them. You are aware of when you meet trans people who don’t effectively pass. You have literally no way of knowing when you meet trans people who do effectively pass. By the very nature of their passing, you’re unaware that it’s happening.

I think Nandy on Politics LIve was saying that 3rd spaces need creating but not sure as I was only half listening. It's available on iplayer for any who want to check but they are still tying themselves in knots debating about how the SC ruling with actually work in practice and how it will work with the self ID/GRA stuff.

Before going ahead with gender reassignment perhaps both sexes should consider which bathrooms, changing rooms and toilets they are going to be allowed in.

I'm fed up of men wanting to come into women's changing rooms and other places, like hospital wards and prisons.

Just no, fuck off.

Look, the truth is, a penis is a rape weapon.

A transman won't have one. S'he can't do any damage anyway, even with cut off breasts and perhaps slightly stronger arms etc. OK, so they can physically fight a bit better but they aren't going to RAPE anyone because they don't have a penis.

Transwomen on the other hand, do own a rape weapon, a penis and have 99% of the time been through male puberty with the 30% physical advantage over women.

We only have to consider the difference between a man unchanging in a dressing room for women (deeply uncomfortable silence and covering up by all women) vs a woman changing in a man's changing room (wolf-whistles, phroaars and comments full of innuendo).

It's not rocket science. We cannot hold the sexes equal because women have and will always be physically more vulnerable because a) they don't have a penis as a rape weapon and b) they have always been sexualised and predominantly raped, vs being the rapist - which are 99% of the time: MALE.

Even ONE transwoman rapist is one too many. I can't stand stats showing how 'INFREQUENTLY' it occurs.

Imagine for one fucking second that's you being pinned down by a cock in a frock? How does your life change from there.

No, the rule has to be zero men, zero penises that's the only way we can ensure ZERO RAPES.