AIBU to ask what you think should happen with Trans men?

[Akiddleydiveytoo]

OK, I know this is an emotive subject that people feel passionately about so I'm prepared to don my hard hat here in anticipation of the backlash I'm likely to receive. I'm genuinely not trying to be goady though - I am genuinely interested in trying to understand people's opinions on this.

Since the Supreme Court ruling last week there has been lots of discussion about trans women and the impact that the ruling has on their rights to access female only spaces. There has been less debate, however, on the impact that this ruling has on trans men. Surely, if it is ruled that trans women are men, then it follows that trans men are women and should, therefore use women's facilities.

Is this really what women want? A post op trans man who had undergone full gender reassignment surgery would, to ask intents and purpose have a male presenting body complete with muscles, body hair and penis. Would women really be comfortable sharing facilities with such a person. Similarly, should a post op trans woman with breasts and a vagina be forced to share facilities with biological men?

I fully understand and support the need for women to have female only safe spaces and disagree wholeheartedly with trans women competing against biological women in sports due to their genetic advantage but I'm not sure the SC ruling of last week is really the 'triumph' that women's rights activists claim it to be as it presents as many questions as it does answers. I also fear that this judgement will result in single sex spaces being lost altogether as service providers, unable (or unwilling) to comply with all of the legalities and complexities involved, just get rid of single sex provisions in favour of unisex/ gender neutral facilities.

As I said, I've seen lots of debate about this over the last week but, for me, I still have a ton of unanswered questions so I was just wondering what others opinions are.

You do you.

You can’t always tell !

How exactly do you pretend to be a Transwoman?

How can you say that with any confidence given that crimes committed by Trans Women are often recorded as female crimes as has been admitted by the Police Force and Government?

I can

Is this really what women want?
No, I don't want to share a space with anyone who present as men, or are biologically male. Honestly, I don't think trans people are suited for spaces that are very specific to men and women - the only solution there is, is to create 3rd spaces for trans people.

I do not think about it I do not care

It’s so funny that the TRAs have suddenly realised there are transmen - because suddenly they can try and use that as an alternative way to get women to STFU

i am happy to share my safe spaces with biological women no matter how they present

biological men - nope not at all

i I don’t have to justify this - I am a woman saying no

There's probably about three in the whole country so I couldn't care less

I think most trans men are either using the ladies or a third space already. I don’t think anything much is changing for them. I’m not scared of them and they’re welcome to use the same facilities as me

But some of them DO have penises. And I don't want them in MY spaces.

I would have thought transmen could use either toilet. Transwomen on the other hand should use a unisex one. I don't want them in my spaces or exposed to young girls.

Dress up like a woman with the sole intent of claiming trans status to be able to access female spaces and do bad things.

I am extremely dubious that this is a thing over and above very isolated incidents, but it's a fear I hear repeated in conversations about the trans community, so...

I have never had to ask for a key. Only time I do is in coffee shops where that is the ONLY toilet. So everyone has to ask for a key.

It’s an accessible toilet. It’s the only one I am able to use with small children to safely change them. So no I don’t feel bad.

And if trans people are being put in a situation where they cant safely use a normal toilet for their sex. Then of course they should use the accessible toilets.

It is not a disability only toilet. It is an accessible toilet.

OK.

On the rare occasions that someone 'passes', they will probably continue to use the facilities they always have and go unchallenged.

TM are more likely to pass than TW due to the effects of testosterone on the body.

There are lots of very convincing photos of TM online who appear to pass but when you see them move (eg on video) or with other people, their slightly built (however muscular) 5' 4 frame usually gives them away!

Very few men/women can genuinely pass as the opposite sex. Even those who get close have an 'uncanny valley' element to them.

The ruling is more important for the aspect that it allows us to say no and state the bleeding obvious without fear of losing our jobs or being gaslit by national organisations.

Some organisations will continue to offer access to TW but they will have to announce that they are doing so rather than just advertising as being open to 'women'.

And organisations or events which don't want to include TW will no longer have to.

No one is being erased. Most importantly, not women.

As far as men and TW go. That's for them to sort out. Women are not responsible for men.

My understand is taht the Supreme Court included this in their judgement.

Some one else will come along with the precise words but they gave an example along the lines of if a transman passes so well that they look like a man, it is appropriate for them to be in the men's.... and not appropriate for them to be in the women's (despite their entitlement to be so).

Except you wouldn't know! 😁

The transmen who 'pass' as men... The tall, hairy ones and (all the other transmen) you wouldn't know...

Sone it the small wispy men are actually biological males!

I sang with a bass singer in a choir who was a transman... I only knew as I became quite friendly with him and his partner.

They don't actually have a penis though, they have something that they like to call a penis but its not, and a TW can never have a vagina no matter how much surgery they have.
Either way I agree that people need to use facilities of any kind according to their biological sex

Build extra spaces for people who are trans-whatever.

Men, women, and unisex

So while its claimed we CAN'T tell someones sex by looking at them we CAN tell what their intentions are?

Thats fine. Better the odd bepenised woman than alllowing all men into our spaces.
Theres been an undue emphasis on toilets. I am more concerned about prisons, refuges, NHS wards and sports.

A trans man who has undergone gender reassignment surgery could have a penis. There are also many trans men who are completely passing. TERFs love to say they can ‘always tell’ but it’s clearly a delusion. I’ve seen a huge number of trans men and trans women online and in real life (relevant to a volunteering role I have) who pass so completely, others wouldn’t know they were trans unless told.

And what’s now going to stop predatory men following women into bathrooms while claiming to be trans men? How are women any safer from predators in bathrooms? Or was that actually not the point all along…?

Seems like double standards going on there...

Funny how no one talked about transmen for a decade. Now suddenly so much concern...

For all those saying they could 'tell' if a person is a trans man - could you really though? If any of these people walked into a ladies toilet would you really be able to tell and would you really feel comfortable with them in there?