AIBU to ask what you think should happen with Trans men?

[Akiddleydiveytoo]

OK, I know this is an emotive subject that people feel passionately about so I'm prepared to don my hard hat here in anticipation of the backlash I'm likely to receive. I'm genuinely not trying to be goady though - I am genuinely interested in trying to understand people's opinions on this.

Since the Supreme Court ruling last week there has been lots of discussion about trans women and the impact that the ruling has on their rights to access female only spaces. There has been less debate, however, on the impact that this ruling has on trans men. Surely, if it is ruled that trans women are men, then it follows that trans men are women and should, therefore use women's facilities.

Is this really what women want? A post op trans man who had undergone full gender reassignment surgery would, to ask intents and purpose have a male presenting body complete with muscles, body hair and penis. Would women really be comfortable sharing facilities with such a person. Similarly, should a post op trans woman with breasts and a vagina be forced to share facilities with biological men?

I fully understand and support the need for women to have female only safe spaces and disagree wholeheartedly with trans women competing against biological women in sports due to their genetic advantage but I'm not sure the SC ruling of last week is really the 'triumph' that women's rights activists claim it to be as it presents as many questions as it does answers. I also fear that this judgement will result in single sex spaces being lost altogether as service providers, unable (or unwilling) to comply with all of the legalities and complexities involved, just get rid of single sex provisions in favour of unisex/ gender neutral facilities.

As I said, I've seen lots of debate about this over the last week but, for me, I still have a ton of unanswered questions so I was just wondering what others opinions are.

No one is trying to say it has banned gender ideology or words, or forced people to present in a gendered way that aligns with their biology. You are deliberately misunderstanding that previous poster’s point. Well, I presume it's deliberate anyway. Nice try at getting in some authoritarianism dog-whistle stuff though.

@Hoppinggreen
Stephen Whittle
While I'm sure that many transmen do still look rather feminine, there are certainly some who have transitioned to the extent that they essentially look indistinguishable from other men.

Below is a photograph of Professor Stephen Whittle, a transgender man.

Personally, I feel that he should be able to use men's bathrooms if he so chooses, and it's likely that he would have no problems doing so. However, if he was legally obliged to use women's toilets and complied with that, then he might be vulnerable to being challenged/criticised/verbally attacked, simply because he is, on sight, non-distinguishable from other males.

@Bloozie how can we restrict some services by sex if we are already allowing men in the loos? I dont think its possible to cherrypick.

My feeling is that trans issues actually affect very, very few of us in any substantial way, or even in insubstantial ways. There just aren't that many of them around, and with a fair number of them, you'd never know they were trans anyway.

Therefore, all these debates seem to me largely disingenuous. People really just like to have someone to scapegoat, someone to feel superior to, and to feel like they wisely know best about and should have a say in issues that aren't their business and that they're totally ignorant about.

Exactly @CarrotVan the recent article by Janice Turner in the times sums it up for me. Part of her article attached.

Self ID allowed the floodgates to open. The SC ruling therefore needed to happen for clarity and to end this insanity! Unfortunately I don’t think it’s going to end any time soon…

Or the fully functioning penis that can be used to commit rape.

Don't give a shit if they're taller or beardier (no guarantees there, PCOS is very effective) or being a that about being there/wanting attention, they're not equipped with the number one weapon throughout history.

I have no problem sharing a space with a woman who has had a mastectomy, takes hormones and/or has a fake penis.

She is not statistically likely to commit a violent crime against me, so why would I?

Basically, that's because a women's organisation brought it to court for clarification around the word woman. Because that's the word/sex category that's been under thread.

Men aren't expected to accept TM in the way women have been expected to accept TW (that's misogyny for you!)

So, yes, a pp is right. TM can continue to use the men's facilities if they pass well enough. If men don't like it, well, they've always been able to exclude TM without question anyway (eg the gay sauna in London). No TM who doesn't pass is going to argue with a bloke in the loos anymore than any other woman is
They'll just leave.

As.far as I know there haven't been hoardes of TM making physical, violent orsexual threats against men so they're probably less bothered about a TM in their loos👍

And, once again, this isn't just about which toilets people use. That's a tiny part of it.

Before self ID, we did actually have a brief period of that true compromise that the TRAs insist we have now even though we patently haven't.

A vanishingly small number of people with a genuine diagnosis of gender dysphoria, who had taken steps to feminise or masculinise their bodies as much as possible, and had possession of a GRC, used male or female spaces. My understanding is that while they generally did use the facilities that corresponded to their gender identity, they did not tend to seek out single sex spaces and events and so on. For example, they'd go swimming and use a cubicle where possible, but they did not tend to go to women's or men's swim nights. We did not notice them and they lived in peace.

Self ID came in and validated all the perverts who couldn't believe their luck that they now got unfettered access to all women's spaces by simply putting on a dress, and all the women who objected were now the bigots and genital fetishists, while they were the vulnerable and oppressed minority who could do whatever they wanted. It was like all their Christmases had come at once. At the same time, genuinely vulnerable and unhappy young people, almost all of them autistic, depressed and, in fact, just gender non-conforming and gay, had their physical and mental health and entire futures played fast and loose with, largely to validate the first group of people.

Trans men are women. It's not difficult.

If a "transman" (woman) were to commit a criminal offence, I can guarantee you that hardly any-if any at all-would clamour to serve their sentence in a men's prison and be intimately searched by male guards.

That is because they are women and in these extreme circumstances, would remember this fact.

Unlike "Transwomen"(men) who-in the same situation-clamour to be placed in a women's prison.

Transmen (women) are also not clamouring to compete in men's sports. This is because they are women. Neither are Transmen (women) assaulting anyone with their penis. This is because they are women and they do not have a penis.

Anyway, just refer to Transwomen as MEN and Transmen as WOMEN and you will find muddy waters suddenly break to reveal a shimmering pool of clear common sense.

Genital inspections on entry to toilets it is then. That's the only way to be sure. Glad you've been so clear.

Keep your 'cis', we don't need it, we are women.

Men keep out of women's safe spaces!

I can spot a cock in a frock from a hundred paces away. No need for the genital police.

@Bloozie

you obviously missed the fragrant Katie, who is in prison for sexually assaulting a child in a supermarket ladies toilet. I’ve added a picture on his way to prison after the court hearing.

Regarding the OP’s gallery of transmen and ‘can you tell ?’ The mastectomy scars are a bit of a give away….even with a top on though, if you disregard the facial hair every person pictured bar one has a typically female face ( brow ridge, jawline) . There’s not much that surgery can do about the narrow shoulders or the wider hips, either. Even fully clad and not scowling, I think you could tell pretty much straightaway….

Technically transmen need to use female single sex facilities. In reality the ones who pass are likely to ignore this and continue to use the mens. Tbh this isn’t my problem. The ones who use female only facilities and pass are likely to be challenged - it isn’t really the fault of other women that they are going around in an extreme disguise and they are going to have to live with that. The ones who don’t pass (many) aren’t an issue. If the choice is sharing with women disguised as men or men disguised as women I’d choose the women disguised as men. What is completely ludicrous is to say all women’s single sex spaces should be mixed sex because a very small number of women have disguised themselves so convincingly as men then we can’t keep actual men out.

I can look 3 stone lighter, blonde and 6 inches taller in a photo
I am also not moving

And a transman from a man too I'm sure. As someone already said, you only notice trans people when they don't pass. You've no idea about the ones who do.

Transmen are women. Couldn't care less if they use my bathroom.

Also, the vast majority of transmen never have bottom surgery.

I suppose you could argue that if they are on testosterone and it's affecting them badly and they fancy women and are incel-like then they could pose a threat to women in a similar way to a man. But I suspect those would be very rare occurrence.

I fundamentally disagree.

I have been in a situation where a Transwoman has made me feel extremely uncomfortable. This particular TW had stubble, a purple synthetic wig and hairy legs under their skirt. They made a real point of going to the female toilet. I felt extremely intimidated and to be honest quite frightened. They were clearly getting a kick out of being a TW as there is no woman on god's earth that has ever acted like this. At this point I realised the threat of gender ideology was real and tangible.

I don't want to scapegoat anybody and of course not all Transwomen are like this particular individual but we really do have to question who we are letting into single sex spaces with vulnerable people.

Other countries with trans people manage to have separate spaces without genital inspections. Apparently its only the UK that is so deeply confused by what a woman is.

Not all transwomen dress in stereotypically feminine clothing. Some wear jeans and stuff,just like bio women.

I'm more worried about "look at me masturbating in the workplace toilets', eg James Makings at the NSPCC in 2019
https://uncommongroundmedia.com/nspcc-employee-films-himself-masturbating-at-work/
or
Tyler Porter in Canada. Those are just two I happen to remember off the top of my head.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1722756661380462/posts/2471461003176687/

Transmen might but transwomen really don't pass. If they have female friends who tell them they do they've picked up a really out of date 'be kind' memo that the rest of us binned long ago. They can kid themselves along as much as they like.

If women see them they don't necessarily say anything, that's not a 'pass', it's safety first.

They don't pass. Reason being, they are not women. Women pass as women because we are, whatever we're wearing, whatever we're doing - and we don't need the opinion of men to tell us otherwise because it's irrelevant.

Well essentially biological males are the risk factors for issues with non single sex spaces.

Trans men (biological females) will presumably keep using the toilets etc that they currently are. I’d be interested to know how many trans men (biological female) are using male toilets anyway, because they are already potentially at risk of biological males in toilets etc.

Trans women (biological males) can use disabled toilets or third spaces, as they’re also potentially at risk from males in these spaces. But they must stop potentially posing a risk to biological females by invading their spaces.

I also suspect some trans women who don’t wish to prove points or make women uncomfortable, will pop into the female toilets without issue.

It seems to be the males who want to compete against women in sport, breastfeed, have cervical smears on their non existent cervixes etc that are the problem here.

How many trans men want to compete with biological males in elite sport? How many insist on prostate examinations on their non existent prostates?

Would be interesting to see stats, but I suspect as usual, the issues are males dominating public spaces that they shouldn’t be in.

All the gender stereotypes. Apparently because I'm 6 foot, with muscles and don't shave my legs, I may be up for being questioned in a toilet (nothing new to be honest but can imagine it's going to get worse).