To think that social standards have slipped because people don’t feel shame anymore?

[ForBreezySloth]

It feels like over the last couple of decades, a lot of social standards have gone downhill - not just in how people behave in public but in how they present themselves, how they speak to others and even basic manners.

It used to be that certain things were considered embarrassing and that kept people in check. Now, it’s almost like there’s a pride in being shameless. Noisy phone calls in public, wearing pyjamas to the shops, blasting personal drama online - there’s no sense of “maybe I shouldn’t do this.”

I’m not saying people should live in fear of judgement but has the pendulum swung too far? Has losing a sense of shame made society worse?

Today on the train, a man chewed gum nosily with his mouth open for the entire journey.

Revolting. I wanted to say ‘did your mother not teach you to eat with your mouth shut’.

He was about 40.

I feel people have been saying this exact thing since the dawn of time, so yes, YABU.

I agree.

And if you point out that someone's behaviour is less than ideal, you get accused of 'shaming' them 🙄

He was about 40?

Yeah, it's all his mum's fault then.

Possibly, but I think it’s a number of other factors.
lack of self awareness is a big one.
i see it in the supermarket all the time. People with trolleys lengthways across the aisle totally in their own world. Where I live if you say excuse me it’s likely they won’t hear or will get agitated that you didn’t wait…if you do wait it’s likely you’ll get snapped at for not saying excuse me!
Also some people feel entitled to behave as they wish in public regardless of the potential impact on others.
lots of impatient people too

Every generation since the 1950s and probably before says this about the younger generation.

I blame 1) ugg boots 2) Eastenders 3) Dom Joly.

Is it shame or is it the social contract?

In the olden days, you behaved as a basically functional wc/mc person, you did a normal job, you behaved normally, you got a few things. You could buy a house, you could lead your life mostly free of debt. You could retire at the reasonable age and get a decent standard of living. You got healthcare and the trains ran.

Now, you work hard and are in debt with two incomes. You will never buy a house, no matter how you save on a normal wage. You might not even afford children. Everything got sold off, your country is just a bit shit. You won’t ever retire and if you do you will live in poverty.

It wasn’t the working poor/middle class who broke the contract, it was the rich. And they made many of the rules around decorum. If noblesse no longer obliges, why stick to outmoded forms of ‘manners’?

“The phrase "Didn't your mother teach you?" is a common idiom used to express surprise or disapproval when someone makes a mistake, behaves inappropriately, or doesn't know something that should be common knowledge. It implies that a person should have learned certain basic life skills or manners during childhood.”

This is a really interesting angle… I actually agree that a lot of disillusionment has fuelled the shift. When people feel like doing things the ‘right’ way doesn’t lead anywhere, they’re less motivated to play by the old rules.

I suppose I just wonder where the line is between justified rebellion and letting go of basic standards that make public life more bearable. Maybe both things can be true at once?

I think we’re becoming less clever too which has a lot to do with it.

This is true, but I don’t think it’s all bad. I’m happy that as a woman, I’m not judged about not having a pristine house. Nice that people have the freedom to wear comfortable clothing. And it’s good that we are less judgemental about people who might be suffering with poor mental health and other things that might make it harder to keep up appearances.

Absolutely agree OP. There’s too much “understanding” why someone behaves/looks/acts like they do. If we don’t bring back the concept of shame it will definitely get worse.

I don’t fully agree that people with no money back in the day or now are to blame for the lack of manner and decorum today. Also don’t agree that moneyed folk all have great manners or decorum.
I agree and we talk a lot in my circles about WTAF is wrong with some people or most people today, but I’ve never heard it down to economic situation.

Yet people are shamed for anything and everything on here!!

It’s not something I’ve noticed in public, but I have seen the opposite at work. I work in a very male dominated industry that was rife with sexual harassment. In the last 10yrs this has drastically improved and it’s such a nicer atmosphere. Maybe because people are less afraid to call things out now?

I do agree with you OP but as someone who was brought up constantly being told (angry whisper) "stop it, what will people think, everyone's looking at you"....I ended up with a severe social anxiety by my late teens and just popping into a supermarket for a sandwich had me having a full blown panic attack.

Thankfully I bought my house at 20 and I had to force myself to do life maintainence but even 25+ years later I'm still (secretly) terribly self-conscious when out the house.

I would prefer kids are empowered to be themselves that brought up to feel a life of shame or embarrassment for things that aren't really important in the grand scale of things.

I think so too but I’m not sure if I’m judgemental due to my upbringing and what I was told was important.

I do think it’s better for social cohesion if we can expect minimum standards from other people around us. I don’t think mines are even that high.
Pretty much be courteous, and be mindful that what you do affects others. Little things like where possible try to avoid making lots of noise around others or noise at unsociable times especially if you live in a flat. Being malodorous is pretty unpleasant especially at work or on public transport , don’t litter, pick up after your pets.

Feel free not to bring your whole self to work in bondage leather and post photos online.

I find it really unsettling that you want people to feel shame. That’s a really nasty thought to have.

Yes I know what it means thanks.

However, I believe sexist phrases should remain firmly in the past.

Don't you?

Some of the old shame has been redirected in more positive ways, like calling out harassment or bad behaviour that used to be brushed off. What I was referring to is more the general public/social sphere where there seems to be less self-awareness or consideration for others. But you’re right, it’s not all bad - some of these shifts have definitely improved things too.

I don’t fully agree that people with no money back in the day or now are to blame for the lack of manner and decorum today. Also don’t agree that moneyed folk all have great manners or decorum.

I don’t think that’s what @MrsTerryPratchett is saying. The social contract is a construct whereby if you do your part, in whatever way that might be, you’ll gain certain benefits in society.

It used to be that holding down a job, being responsible, gaining an education etc would enable you to have a certain lifestyle (whether that be working class, middle class whatever). That social contract is broken for many people - they do the work, behave responsibly etc but can’t afford the associated lifestyle and social capital. That means people don’t feel the same duty towards social convention and so standards of behaviour slip.

This just comes around and around

I am not that old, but I do think personal hygiene is a lot better overall than in the 80s (not that most people were stinky but there was more of it than now)

This is of course very true.

So we are going to end up like the Victorians. And they were (mostly) feral

Interesting.

Do you see all shame as a bad thing?

For example (just off the top of my head), if you were sitting at a table with 2 friends and there were 3 cakes, let's just say you grabbed and ate all 3 cakes leaving them with none.

Should you not feel ashamed of your actions?

Seems to be some sort of reaction to the ‘stiff upper lip’ thing?

Tgere seems to be a certain lack of courtesy and manners. I think it’s always been there but has got worse.

I think it’s a great idiom and I will continue to use it, and no I don’t find it sexist at all.