To think that social standards have slipped because people don’t feel shame anymore?

[ForBreezySloth]

It feels like over the last couple of decades, a lot of social standards have gone downhill - not just in how people behave in public but in how they present themselves, how they speak to others and even basic manners.

It used to be that certain things were considered embarrassing and that kept people in check. Now, it’s almost like there’s a pride in being shameless. Noisy phone calls in public, wearing pyjamas to the shops, blasting personal drama online - there’s no sense of “maybe I shouldn’t do this.”

I’m not saying people should live in fear of judgement but has the pendulum swung too far? Has losing a sense of shame made society worse?

Surely you see that social shame is simply applied to the subjects of the day though?

Do you disagree that sexual abusers should be shamed, exploiters and groomers? Perpetrators of DV? People like Michelle Mone and corrupt businessmen?

These people have replaced the people we used to shame. You're ok with that I assume?

This is such a heartfelt comment. You’ve really captured the tension I was trying to explore: is it about standards or is it just the world moving differently now? I think your instinct to help your daughter came from a place of love and your awareness of how it might make her feel shows real thoughtfulness. It’s such a different time now - and I don’t think there’s a simple answer. But your memory of your dad and that ritual with the polish and newspaper really touched me. Maybe it’s not about clinging to old standards but holding onto care - and figuring out how to express it in a way that supports, not shames.

I've just cleaned and polished my teenage son's school shoes, because I think it's important.

He goes to a traditional, private boys' school where they try to instil in them that the little things count. So tuck your shirt in, polish your shoes, hold a door open for a teacher, etc.

I told him to polish his shoes last night before he went back to school today but obviously being 15 he didn't, and he's gone to bed now so I'm doing it, because it matters to me, and I think eventually it will matter to him too.

Yes we all have less time now, both parents working blah blah but standards are still important to me.

I used to teach in a massive secondary. All the kids wore black trainers. No one polished them. Do you polish trainers? Don’t they go in the washer?

Anyway what I’m trying to say is not many people wear leather structured shoes anymore. So less need to polish. Dh and ds both wear trainers all the time.

The polished shoes really touched me.

Maybe it was more important back in the day because people didn't have multiple pairs of shoes and the ones they had needed to last longer. And they were probably made of leather, not plastic, and needed nourishing. Or maybe, they had lived during a war and in the ration years that followed and old habits die hard, people took care of the little things and this was their way of showing gratitude for the things they had. Washing their cars, cutting their hedge, polishing their shoes, ironing their shirt. Occasionally, when I have the time to do these things, I feel a contentment, a sense of a job well done. And as far as shame goes, I think it's a paralysing and oppressive force, maybe having a conscience and a sense of conviction that I can do better is more empowering.

I hope you can see that it isn't the fear of social shame that stops sexual abusers from abusing.

All social shame does is make them work harder to hide their actions.

Perpetrators of abuse need to be identified, stopped, and punished. We need to work hard on the causes of abuse and criminal activity so that the urge to offend is reduced because it's about choosing the right thing because it's the right thing. And finding ways to manage and contain those who are psychologically too unwell to do the right thing.

Why ? Do you not think an active sense of shame is what informs decent behaviour ?

"I used to teach in a massive secondary. All the kids wore black trainers. No one polished them. "

No, he has to wear black leather shoes to school and they do need polishing or they look awful.

My DD goes to a different school and she wears black Air Forces and no I don't polish those 😀

And women were shamed for it. My old ma, born 1940, said people in the village threw stones at her mother when she was out and about with my mum in the pram, because she'd been visibly pregnant (with my mother) on the day she got married. So, it happened, but there were consequences.

Shame isn't useful at all. The sort of person who would feel shame after littering wouldn't deliberately litter in the first place.

I don't think this is true, especially where children are concerned.

I remember ripping the wrapper off an ice lolly and throwing it on the pavement outside the ice cream van.

My mum told me I should be ashamed of myself as I was old enough to know better (and I was, I was 8 years old!)

I remember quite vividly picking it up and putting it in my pocket until I found a bin, and I remember feeling ashamed.

It was that feeling that stopped me ever doing it again, even when my mum wasn't there.

Exactly.

I know you didn't ask that question of me, but I'll answer anyway. I don't think shame informs decent behaviour. I think it provokes anxiety, dishonesty and bullying. I think it quashes truthful self examination, openness and clear communication.

I am alarmed at how shaming is becoming more prolific and more far reaching in the digital age, where anyone with an axe to grind can unleash a viral storm on person xyz going about their business and maybe having a bad day. I find the micro-examination of artistic contributors' motivations and proclivities to be stultifying and repressive and I am frustrated that it is everywhere, in everyday discourse. I am, also, horrified that young people are increasingly looking to organised religion, fascism and regulated misogyny as the answer to their atomised, disconnected lives.

We’re living in a world where you can enter a gastropub with a child, be greeted by a 7 foot drag queen screaming into a microphone whilst parading around having been booked as the pubs entertainment on a Saturday afternoon and then told your child is an arsehole for not liking it.

Yep, like the Victorians, arbitrary and illogical rules about what is and isn't acceptable behaviour.

Do we? That's quite niche IMHO. I've been to Pride and agree some of the rubber is a bit 😲 in front of children but it's mostly a) tongue in cheek b) not your everyday wear. People can choose not to take young children. Live and let be IMHO.

Haha that's very insightful. I do indeed fear the younger generation. I am becoming irrelevant. What is one to do about this?

OK, in a more serious tone, shame is a natural human emotion, and as such it has a purpose as a kind of social glue. Its absolutely impossible that young uns have stopped feeling or experiencing shame.

@wordler Even better if we were teaching social responsibility at home, way before they go to school! Passing everything off as someone else's responsibility (using cutlery, toilet training, respecting others etc) is yet another way standards have 'slipped'.

I’m simpatico with your class analysis, but unfortunately it’s the rich who are the most insulated from atrocious public behaviour. The truly wealthy have staff handling most everyday things that stress the rest of us out.

No, they should not do it. What’s the use of being ashamed if they just carry on with the same behaviour anyway?

I wonder if it stems from Mrd Thatcher ‘s me society.
There is so much money paid in benefits (I mean large numbers are paid, not that large amounts are paid) that if anyone has an issue the Gov has to sort it rather than turning to family or even friends. Or getting a second job. No one feels a responsibility to others, we don’t step in to regularly help elderly neighbours, with people who need help childminding - you are expected to turn to the Gov -which is the taxpayer - then taxpayers (most people) grudge doing any more for society. Other countries run differently eg US - less tax paid, less benefits but more help from church.

As someone who grew up in Catholic Ireland in the 80s I'm very glad that shame is no longer an accepted method of social control.

I think this a lot. People turning up to work looking less smart than most would to go shopping is a huge one. It often does accompany a sloppy attitude.

for me I don’t think it’s shame that’s lacking but self respect, self awareness and personal responsibility.

Shame comes from judgement and no-one has the right to judge any one.

@Nomorecoconutboosts Snap! Definitely lots of people who give free rein to their unbridled impatience. I find impatience on display to be such an unattractive trait; it's sort of entitled, unhinged, impulsive and just plain rude rolled into one.

I think this. I can vividly remember being a 2000s teenager, we were up in the early hours going on holiday and my DM telling me to pipe down because I'll disturb the neighbours. My response was something like "why do you even care? It's not like we know any of them,".

I don't even think I've changed much. I try to behave decently for personal moral reasons but if I'm honest I do feel very indifferent to the people around me because most of them are just strangers.