To think that social standards have slipped because people don’t feel shame anymore?

[ForBreezySloth]

It feels like over the last couple of decades, a lot of social standards have gone downhill - not just in how people behave in public but in how they present themselves, how they speak to others and even basic manners.

It used to be that certain things were considered embarrassing and that kept people in check. Now, it’s almost like there’s a pride in being shameless. Noisy phone calls in public, wearing pyjamas to the shops, blasting personal drama online - there’s no sense of “maybe I shouldn’t do this.”

I’m not saying people should live in fear of judgement but has the pendulum swung too far? Has losing a sense of shame made society worse?

Those attitudes were common in society also though. Lots of people were still more traditional. I noticed it because I was young and felt differently. There was still loads of hoo haa about people "living in sin" in the 1980s and attitudes towards homosexuality changed hugely between the 1980s and 2000s. Homophobia was absolutely rife at my secondary school in the late 1980s. And before people moaning about "woke" we had moaning about political correctness.

Was there?!

l used to teach fashion history. The only one l know is the pre WW1 one which was linked to Art Noveau.

Wasn't much better in 2000 I had my first baby the pressure to get married was intense (I declined) then when I went it alone loads of judgement i lost my job and had to claim benefits friends reactions varied from well your pretty enough get yourself out there you won't be single long to friends dropping me in case I took their husbands ffs

Spot on.

Yes, you'll see people panicking on here about whether someone has been 'shamed' or 'judged'

Yes they have been shamed if they've done something wrong and judged negatively

Nothing wrong with shame or judgement, its a human tool to maintain social norms so that society can function effectively for the majority without descending into chaos and harm.

If you feel shame or guilt for something you did wrong, you're less likely to do it again. Try to make recompense and engage with restoration.

Its not foolproof but its better than 'I dont give a shit what people think'

I hadn’t thought about it in terms of repeating cultural waves like that but it makes a lot of sense. You’re right about the 2008 crash - it really did seem to usher in a kind of cynicism or at least a sense that the rules had changed for good. And social media, for all its benefits, has definitely made judgement and comparison feel constant. It’s strange - people seem more visible than ever and yet more disconnected too.

I wonder if it's something to do with the loss of close knit communities. I grew up in a small village and knew every family on my street. Very few people left/moved away so the community was close and the children played together. My parents went to church on Sunday in their Sunday best - it was unheard of not to dress up. My mother would not allow us to eat in public - we came home for drinks and biscuits. No one did their washing on Sundays. There was an unwritten set of rules, if my Mum caught another child swearing she would tell them off and probably tell his mum too!
Now with the loss of close communities, it seems those unwritten rules of behaviour are no longer there. Everyone is aware of their 'rights', there isn't the need to 'fit in'.

I am 71 and I remember those things.

Well yeah but do you want to live like that?

I just don’t get this.

l had my first in 1993. No pressure to get married.
2nd in 2006 no pressure to get married.

Maybe l just didn’t care what people thought? I don’t know. Most parents weren’t married when my dc were born. Or very few that l knew.

I think every generation has a version of this. For my parents, having me dressed well and keeping my hair tidy was more important than me feeling comfortable. I had to go to Uni to prove their worth. They didn't want to be judged by the neighbours and society and having good manners was part of that. For my grandparents it was more extreme (Catholic irish), they would have rejected their children completely if they got pregnant outside of marriage or were gay. Their need to keep up appearances overrode the well being of their kids and their love for them. All of these things sound crazy and unthinkable now. But we have other things we fear, things we do to conform. People don't vocalise if they have traditional views on family or are anti abortion for example as they are torn to shreds. Religious people get sneered at so they keep opinions to themselves. We don't leave our kids playing freely all day or walking home alone for fear of judgement more than fear of anything happening. We say we are so liberal and open minded these days but actually we are just all conforming to a different set of rules and we are just as narrow minded as we ever were.

Yes, that’s such a good point - it’s not just about shame, it’s about connection. When people felt part of a real community, there was more care (or pressure) to show up a certain way - and more accountability too. Now that everyone’s more anonymous, especially in cities, I guess some of that sense of shared responsibility has disappeared. You’re right - if no one knows you, it’s easier to not care.

Have you any proof of that? I very much doubt it.

Babies were being born less than nine months after a wedding long before 1960 but I've never heard of such an elaborate scheme to avoid the scandal and the shame!

It was far from uncommon I can assure you. My grandparents were beyond themselves.

I did! And it was a very happy childhood.

Shame isn't useful at all. The sort of person who would feel shame after littering wouldn't deliberately litter in the first place.

It's feeling a sense of responsibility to yourself, your family, your friends and your community so that you do the right things because they are the right things not for fear of reprisal - whether that reprisal is shame, social shunning or legal punishments.

For example most people don't murder other people - not because they fear punishment but because they know it's the wrong thing to do. And those that do murder people do it despite the potential consequence - even when that consequence is losing their own life.

Perhaps we need to start teaching more about personal responsibility and social stewardship in schools from an early age.

How odd. People generally just claimed the baby was "early" even though it was patently obvious it wasn't. People have had babies "early" since the beginning of time.

We all know people had babies "early" from the dawn of time. But what my grandparents arranged was not that unusual in the 50s/60s.

You know, it reminds me a bit of the Overton Window, where 'people' or 'groups' with vested interests lobby government and campaign generally to slowly turn popular opinion to influence policy but in this case, these 'groups' and 'people' slowly influence us ... with influencers ... so that we accept more and more 'out there/radical ideas and behaviour which then benefits their agenda. What we have to figure out is who benefits from a drop in standards of public decency?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window

No it’s not, it’s part of a healthy functioning society.

Lots of societies do and they are said to be emotionally healthier than us.

Many people would find it suffocating and smothering. Perhaps the positives outweigh the negatives?

I felt shame today because I immediately noticed the state of my grandchildren's shoes when my daughter dropped them off on her way to work this morning. I was cross that I felt I had to spend time scrubbing and polishing them when time is always tight before the school run.

I thought of my lovely dad who would take a sheet of newspaper and a box of different coloured tins of shoe polish, a brush and a yellow duster, and bring everyone's shoes to a beautiful shine every Sunday evening.

When I got to school I realised that everyone else's shoes were dirty, scuffed, shabby. In fact it seemed that there was some sort of competitive shabby shoe contest going on I didn't know about - the shabbier the better.

I kept thinking about it on and off all day and felt ashamed that I thought badly of my daughter who is a single, working mother of three ND children. I now don't know whether my cleaning her children's shoes has made her feel bad -
which makes me feel worse.

I now don't know whether to never do that again, or to keep doing it to 'help' her.

I have many, more important, things to worry about, but this has been on my mind a lot today.

Is it standards slipping? Or just a less
judgemental attitude?

I hadn’t thought about the Overton Window in this context but it makes a lot of sense. Cultural norms definitely don’t just shift randomly and there’s probably always someone who benefits from loosening standards or blurring the lines. It’s a bit uncomfortable to sit with but it’s true… the more ‘out there’ becomes normal, the easier it is to steer society in certain directions. I guess the challenge is figuring out what’s genuine change vs what’s being pushed… and by whom.

I remember my dad doing that.

Then ex Dh wouldn’t.

Then l stopped caring. No one seems to clean shoes anymore. I never do