To think that social standards have slipped because people don’t feel shame anymore?

[ForBreezySloth]

It feels like over the last couple of decades, a lot of social standards have gone downhill - not just in how people behave in public but in how they present themselves, how they speak to others and even basic manners.

It used to be that certain things were considered embarrassing and that kept people in check. Now, it’s almost like there’s a pride in being shameless. Noisy phone calls in public, wearing pyjamas to the shops, blasting personal drama online - there’s no sense of “maybe I shouldn’t do this.”

I’m not saying people should live in fear of judgement but has the pendulum swung too far? Has losing a sense of shame made society worse?

All of the examples you have mentioned are where people deliberately cause harm to others and are illegal. I believe we should have a legal system that punishes and rehabilitates offenders. I also believe that when released, offended should be able to get jobs and contribute to society through taxes.

I don't see how shame prevents crime or reopening. I don't hang outside jails ringing a bell and yelling shame.

Economic situation has a lot to do with it. I know kids who have an absent parent, or their parents are time-poor because they are struggling financially and working extra shifts or two jobs.
While this is happening, the DC are not being shown how to behave by their parents, and are more likely to be influenced in their behaviour by TV programmes and Social Media.
The saying “It takes a village to raise a child”, when that village is now an all-pervading sea of questionable media, no longer holds true, and for those kids that aren’t getting the correct level of attention and guidance, it is always going to be difficult to get them to understand the social contract.
There is a growing class of people like this, that are simply unaware of “acceptable” behaviour. Shaming them because of their circumstances seems a bit harsh - there should be a better way to restore self-awareness than that…

Re people becoming less clever; it's a bit of a tangent, but I do wonder whether a certain kind of 'smarts' is in decline or perhaps not valued as much.

Many elderly people I know are often really quite good at or knowledgeable about a lot of things. They possess niche skills and areas of competence which I don't see much of among my peers (middle-aged WC woman), let alone younger people. Sure, a lot of this is likely due to having lived long enough to acquire this enhanced acumen, benefiting from more years, but there is also something around patience, attention to detail and a capacity for prolonged concentration which, if noted in younger people, is often off-the-cuff attributed to a person being ND, which is, of course, not necessarily the case.

“Live and let be”

”you don’t have to take children” to a public parade on the public streets

You really can’t see the problem? Pride absolutely used to be somewhere where families could go. It wasn’t an “adult” march and indeed having fetish wear out in public where there are children is undoing all the good work done by LGB activists over the decades - that gays aren’t sex-obsessed perverts who shouldn’t be around children.

The erosion of the boundary between adults and children (the ultimate endgame of queer theory) should concern you as a parent. The fact that it didn’t just goes to show how successful been.

V interesting

My children don't litter. They weren't shamed into it though. I taught them that dropping litter can harm animals and leaves our environment generally unpleasant. We all avoid doing lots of wrong things every day because they are wrong. It's not shame that stops me committing fraud, or parking across 2 parking spaces. It's knowing that there is a good reason why I shouldn't. Whereas I imagined that a lot of things like eating disorders and self harm are driven by shame.

I think it is more about an inclination to prioritise a 'greater good' as opposed to people having a sense of shame. I think this looks different to different people too.

I find myself really shocked when people openly share things they have done or plan to do which is known to have a detrimental impact on the environment or climate. It gives me the same kind of feeling I might have if I watched a fit young person barge a disabled or elderly person out of the way for a seat on the bus, or someone blatantly jumping a cue.

It’s not a crime to shove an old lady out of the way to get the last seat on the bus and then fixedly stare in the opposite direction while she staggers and sways next to you. But that person should feel shame and they’re clearly don’t.

It’s not a crime to impose your smelly food, loud music and rows with your girlfriend down the phone on the train, but those people should feel shame and clearly don’t.

Bad manners aren’t a crime. They used to be subject to shame. Being dishonourable used to be utterly shameful - lying, deceit, cheating.

It's odd I've noticed loads of people chewing with their mouth open?

And lots of children do it and clearly haven't been told by their parents not to.... Its absolutely gross, I don't want to see half masticated bit of food churning around inside your mouth, yuck!

But who decides what is acceptable or not, person a does not believe person b should wear pyjamas in Tescos, why is it unacceptable as people can sleep in anything and then go to the shops in the same clothes

What is it about pyjamas that is so offensive and why on earth does it matter what they wear?

Shame isn't always a bad thing. It's right that we feel ashamed of ourselves for engaging in behaviour we shouldn't have.

Because that's all that shame is - a feeling of guilt that we shouldn't have taken the course of action we did. There are plenty of times that's still something that's helpful - it's what stops people shoving others out if the way to get to something, stops them dropping litter when they can't see a bin nearby. And really it's more about acknowledging that feeling within yourself that you chose the selfish option that was more convenient for yourself, rather than the option/s that would have been preferable for the collective good.

The fact that you had to get out of your pyjamas and properly dressed just to pop out and get some milk and bread could well have helped some people who were struggling to be motivated to get up and face the day.

And if you manage to do that - get out of bed, have a shower, get dressed and leave the house with a degree of pride - you start your day with achievement. And that’s very good for anyone’s mental health.

I don't think being considerate of others is an outdated form of manners, it certainly makes for a nicer world to live in

Manners are taught but consideration should be intrinsic. So chewing gum with your mouth open is one thing but filthy shoes on train seats and similar is another.

Yes. Have you seen Idiocracy? It used to be a comedy and yet a few short years later it looks like a very accurate prediction

“prefer kids are empowered to be themselves”

but the problem is that human beings are inherently selfish so if everyone is empowered then you will ultimately have anarchy. Could it be that parents are too busy/can’t be bothered to teach their children manners and social altruism so society is slowly descending into chaos?

But if you are surrounded by others who are inconsiderate, what's the point? You are inconveniencing yourself in a way that is clearly not valued, or even noticed by anyone else around you.

It's the growth of individualism, an intrinsic part of liberal capitalism. Its freedom. Its what we all wanted. Freedom to do whatever we want all the time. Were we really so naive to expect this regime would somehow preserve the aspects of the old order which we did happen to like?

I blame the dumbing down of tv and reality shows, where absolute lunkheads were given airtime to behave like lunkheads. Z list celebs is what caused this. Half of them can’t even speak properly, and non celeb lunkheads follow their every move on social media. The lunkheads have been endorsed, the genie is out of the bottle! Their pig ignorance is just as valid as behaving respectfully so we are where we are. Dumbed down, entitled and celebrating the wrong things.

Yes I agree. I live my life in shame because of my childhood and it’s not nice. Embarrassment is about thinking something you have done is wrong, shame is thinking you are wring.

Some pernicious behaviour people exhibit is probably due to a lack of consequences so hundreds of years ago inappropriate behaviour would have resulted in you being ostracised from your tribe which would have had possibly terminal consequences.

the reason years and years

I agree with this in some sense, and I do wonder myself sometimes especially where parking like an asshole is concerned. But generally I feel most people are still decent people, and I feel good being a good person. I don't just do it for what someone will do for me. What is the Gandhi saying "An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind." Happy to being back public shaming though 😁

Yeah, there seems to be a presumption that shame is always a bad thing. But sometimes it's valuable. The thought of shame keeps me from doing all sorts of things that I shouldn't do! Like most things sometimes it's good, sometimes it's bad.

What a load of racist bollocks.

I think some shame is necessary.

Starts at home, no?

It's attitudes like yours which are the problem. Just because you don't know someone doesn't mean you can't extend basic good manners and consideration towards them.