To think that social standards have slipped because people don’t feel shame anymore?

[ForBreezySloth]

It feels like over the last couple of decades, a lot of social standards have gone downhill - not just in how people behave in public but in how they present themselves, how they speak to others and even basic manners.

It used to be that certain things were considered embarrassing and that kept people in check. Now, it’s almost like there’s a pride in being shameless. Noisy phone calls in public, wearing pyjamas to the shops, blasting personal drama online - there’s no sense of “maybe I shouldn’t do this.”

I’m not saying people should live in fear of judgement but has the pendulum swung too far? Has losing a sense of shame made society worse?

Shame is not always a bad thing at all.

If someone allows their dog to shit all over the pavement outside your house, should they not feel ashamed they didn't pick up after it?

This is an excellent point @Ddakji

I agree with both of you.

The other side is that the Victorians were fond of public shaming and also of blaming the poor for their own misfortunes.

We literally already do both of those things now, except the public shaming is global, these days. The rules around what is shameful behaviour are just as intricate and arbitrary and underpinned by a moral sense, although secular.

That is only much worse is happening under the multiculturalism/destroy the UK /make it third world agenda powers to be have taken money to implement and the naive and the contended have been bleeting along to. Under your nose. Get to know them and you'll see.

I can’t understand this.

Are you shaming the op?

Overall I'm glad that a lot of stigma, taboos and shame have gone, and that clothes are much more casual or relaxed. Shoes as well. I have wonky hips and feet and used to get so much foot pain which now know was from having to wear smart shoes with a heel at work. Since the pandemic my feet have been amazing, no pain at all, as I can live in comfortable shoes It doesn't mean you can't be smartly dressed if you want to. In my lifetime it used to be shameful to be gay or be a single mother, particularly a teenage one (no shame for the fathers who have buggered off).

I think there's a distance between shame and doing the right thing. Being a Christian involves forgiveness.

I don't think the old workhouse postings were particularly edifying. Mary Elizabeth, bastard of Eliza.

I don't think anyone needs to experience that level of shame ever again.

You must be very old then. I’m 61. I don’t remember it being shameful to be a single mother or gay. I was a single mother at 30 in 1993. No stigma. But l had loads of friends at university in the mid 80’s who were gay or single parents,

I don’t think it’s lack of shame exactly.

I think our society has become more
and more individualistic and everyone is more focused on doing what suits them rather than compromising for the benefit of those around them.

It’s probably because we don’t live in small tight knit interdependent communities any more - so some don’t worry about annoying or being rude to others as they’ll probably never see them again, and even if they do, they don’t need them for anything.

Well I'm very old and was born in 1960. My mother married in an empire line gown and my grandparents rented her and my father a house near Brighton for 18 months so I was born far away, to avoid the scandal and the shame! When I was 12 and my parents separated, I was the only girl in my class affected by divorce.

Yeah, I mean, women showing their ankles and being out in public without their chaperones. Oh hang on, that was back when standards slipped in the 1800s.

I got into the lift today and none of the men took their hats off, most of them weren’t even wearing hats. No, wait, that was the 1920s

And a whole bunch of children spoke to me before they were spoken to…

Society has been “slipping” since society began.

What is it with all these froth inducing posts nowadays? Is this place too quiet or something?

Somethings are seen as more shameful than they used to be. Treating animals poorly, for example. Drink driving. Physically abusing children. I think it would be unusual for anyone to hit a child in public, whereas not long ago that would have been seen as the norm.

But in other ways, I absolutely agree with you.

No, I'm 49. You have a short memory.

In the 1980s and up to the early 1990s the press regularly outed men for being gay and wrote bile about them. And the press and Tory government were always shaming single mothers, and extolling the traditional family while doing who and what the fuck they like - there was a sex scandal every week! And they carried on this theme in opposition in the late 1990s.

And yet most young people are worse off now. And many more young people claim to be mentally unwell. Maybe shame wasn't so bad and provided a needed boundary.

Haha, fair enough. Maybe every generation has its own ‘back in my day’ moment! I suppose it’s less about wanting to turn back the clock and more about noticing what we gain and lose as things shift. But you’re right, I’d probably be scandalised if I was transported back to the 1920s myself…

Really? You don't remember John Major's 'back to basics' campaign? Peter Lilley standing on his hind legs and giving out about "young girls" getting pregnant (by themselves?) to "get a house" while simultaneously being responsible for all of society's ills, from delinquency to myxomatosis? You don't remember perfectly serious and grim faced panel discussions on the BBC around whether AIDS was god's punishment for gay-ness?

I mean it doesn't much matter if you don't remember these things, because they certainly happened regardless of your own account of those times.

I do wonder at your motivation for so firmly asserting otherwise though.

I know they were always vilifying single mothers. But l and anyone l knew just ignored it. I felt no stigma. Except to upset the Tories which was a bonus.

@User37482 We need to stop pathologising every little thing as being the fault of “society”. We are society.

Pretty much, yep. The difference between reasons and excuses is the element of choice.

I’d probably be scandalised if I was transported back to the 1920s myself…

The 1920s was a belle epoque wasn't it? Lots of social configurations breaking up because people had a bit of money. 60s it happened again, then 90s. We're currently in a prolonged swing away from that - the economy has never quite recovered from 2008, across Europe and the USA, and thanks to social media we can measure ourselves against everyone and also judge everyone. And censure everything everybody vaguely in the public eye has ever said, even when they were teenagers.

Definitely I was out today with my kids so many rude people pushing and shoving you say excuse me AND WAIT not excuse me AND SHOVE

Community rarely exists now so why would anyone care. When we were kids we knew anything we did would get back to our family. My granny used to worry about scrubbing her doorstep and washing her net curtain incase the neighbours thought she was a lazy cow. I don't know my neighbours so why would I care?

The Belle Epoque was pre WW1!

The social changes in the 20’s were more to do with the war than money.

I think it's because people get shamed for all sorts of pointless things so shame started to be seen as a morally bad thing to do to others.

I think shame is actually very necessary and important for society, and for ourselves but it should be directed at things that matter.

There's been more than one belle Epoque!