AIBU to suggest it is time to stop the pretence that people can transition?

[happydappy2]

I really feel gender ideology is a cult, that has totally warped some peoples minds. It brings so many problems to society I’m not sure it’s sustainable. It damages the health of young people, shortens their lives and often rips families apart. At what point do we say no, this is not healthy, it’s incredibly antisocial to expect everyone else to pretend you are the opposite sex when they can see you aren’t….for the good of society let’s stop this madness. Gender dysphoria exists yes but I don’t think we’re treating it in the best way. We don’t affirm that an anorexic patient is indeed too fat so why do we affirm people who think they are the opposite sex?

This. I read medical genetics at university, and that’s how I would have summarised this. Thank you 🙏🏼

My personal opinion, that I will probably put clumsily, is

i do not support any derogatory comments or mistreatment of anyone including whatever way you want to be addressed or to present yourself. I will try to respect this but I will often simply forget.

Any child who wants to be known by different pronouns, names, clothing, activities etc should of course be supported, but with support that reflects the discussion and education that feelings change and no permanent changes to their body should be approved. Life is flexible.

Counselling to consider (again with wide open discussion) surgery and its implications to be offered from 16

Full surgery could start from adulthood ( I will admit I have no detailed clue what this involves)

I personally would not mind fully transitioned adults in places like women’s toilets and changing rooms, but I respect that others may not feel comfortable with this so on balance then no, but I would very much suppprt the growth of gender neutral spaces ( ie mostly cubicles that any individual can use) as much as possible. Especially as there are also so many discussions about young children going into spaces for the opposite sex, helping older children those with neurodiversity etc. I think such a move would help in many ways by creating flexibility

Firm line against going into sports, safe spaces etc. And classing rape as male offences. Cant believe we ever went there

Other things like use of pronouns on emails. Fine if you want to, but not compulsory at all. I think it can be counterproductive, if someone is undecided then why would you try to force any decision.

People should be able to dress/present them selves however they want. However being dressed as a woman should not bring you access to women’s toilets/hospital wards / refuges etc.

Are there some people due to hormonal imbalance or health complications who are possibly the wrong gender. Yes I think so but I imagine it is a small minority.

With regard to people who have had full surgery and take hormones I’m on the fence. I’m not sure what the right answer is. I do think trans women should not compete in women’s sport.

i think sometimes we make issue where there isn’t one, a young girl says they want to be a boy let their imagination run. Don’t start a path /influence them.

Did you study Biology at school?

The overwhelming majority of people on MN are women which is the demographic most affected & at risk.
Women have every right to speak about it.

There is no such thing as 'full surgery'
Surgery only modifies some of the external anatomy.
Hormones influence some of the characteristics.
'full surgery' and hormones cannot change someone's sex.

This poster gets it. Men who are pretending to be women should stop trying to tell women what to do and what to accept.

This is what women are fighting for. Well done, you do get it.

what fraction of trans women have one of these dsd? I see far more men dressed as women than I would expect based on prevalence of dsd.

I think we need to be very cautious handing out drugs or offering surgery without years of mental health assessment to ensure that they know it’s right for them but if men want to wear dresses and women cut hair in a male style and wear men’s cut clothes so what, they are not the opposite sex and should use gender neutral facilities (which seems to be the obsession here) but it’s their choice to socially transition. Why does it matter to you? The person in the pub I know looks frankly ridiculous in women’s clothing but they have chosen to wear it and i respect choice, they use the disabled loo!

I suggested your reply on paragraph 1 and was told I was trying to harm them by counselling. Apparently supposed to just affirm that they have the 'wrong' body. Bizarre when it is children thinking that they can change sex. Affirmation sounds very damaging. Imagine affirming a person with eating disorder who thought they were too fat. Sad approach but some seem.to help their children harm themselves.

The problem, which many people here don't seem to see, is that if we go along with the idea that gendered traits (e.g. men read maps; women nurture; men emotionally incompetent; women multitask; boys toy cars; girls dolls) have a biological basis, i.e. if we agree with gender essentialism, we're taking women's equality and rights back a century or so.

This is a reactionary and regressive ideology, demanding everyone agree with gender essentialism, the sexism we've been fighting against, stripping back centuries of progress to the point where women have been fired and are receiving death threats for saying they don't believe in it.

It's disingenuous at very best to undermine (by pretending it's a fuss about toilets rather than an attempt to reinstate essentialism) the serious danger gender critical people (people who believe that anyone can present as whatever they like because gender is not rooted in biology) are warning us about.

'It seemed to be a fringe issue for decades and then to my mind out of no where there has been this focus on trans women in toilets and prisons. Have to be honest - just seems a bit weird.'

You seemed to have missed a rather lot if you think this is the case.

Did you miss the bit where between 2015-2019 groups like Stonewall used their influence to change policies in government and in the business sector to allow male people into female single sex spaces? And did you then miss from about 2018 when women's rights campaigners voices started reaching mainstream media, that women and girls started to push back to get those policies changed? And that the ruling last week was the culmination of that?

Of course, this was all happening for a decade before 2018. Women have been trying to raise the alarm before that. But I am talking about things that were noticeable in mainstream media.

You are conflating two different things here.

Yes, as animals one of our primary functions of our bodies is to reproduce. All humans are categorised, sometimes modern technology is needed, as either male or female. Every one of us. No person on earth has working ovaries and testes despite some of your other posts.

However, philosophically we all have the decision to not reproduce. Unfortunately some people have no choice due to issues beyond their control.

The vitriol shown towards trans people on here

Receipts, please.

The few derogatory remarks about trans people that I've seen have been rapidly deleted. Your comment indicates the place is full of really nasty ones. Examples?

I’m wondering if any of this vitriol includes holding up signs showing a noose saying “kill TW” or a sign saying “we will make yiu
listen” with bullet holes or sending bombs threats to meetings being held by trans ppl or blockading their meetings screaming and banging on the windows or sebds v messages saying they can die in a grease fire??

no??

because we have receipts for all of the above happening only the subject being women

I see there has been some posts about pronoun usage as well.

Expecting someone to use preferred pronouns over well established and accurate language is a way of demanding someone actively complies to your philosophical belief.

It really is that simple.

How is making someone agree to distort their own material reality to suit yourself ‘kind’?

And the only connection between the people who have transgender identities is their philosophical belief about themselves (and other people). Even the discussion around gender dysphoria, it is about what that person believes about themselves. There are no biological markers, despite many posters on other threads trying to say there is with no evidence at all.

Another way to consider the demands in language away from
established language is that those demanding use of pronouns, or someone who is stating people should use non-sex based pronouns, is that could also be said to be a political demand.

It can be argued that a person who wants to use non-sex based pronouns or wrong sex pronouns is making a political demand. But it is not limited just to the person making the demand about what they want for themselves. It also involves the people who then attempt to emotionally manipulate others to use those pronouns (ie not the person making the pronoun demand). They too are making political statements.

And what type of people demand or manipulate others to comply with a political demand that has not been democratically decided or decided by a democratically elected government? What type of people demand or manipulate others to comply with their philosophical belief.

The more and more these conversations are had, the more that the nature of these demands for language compliance become clear. It is not 'kind' to expect others to comply with your belief. It is not 'respectful' to demand that others contort their language to suit you by using language, that is either meaningless or using well established words in ways that mean the opposite to their original intention, to meet your philosophical belief.

And yet, that is what we see being demanded and declared righteous.

Disagree

This is my main concern around the trans agenda- aside from women's sports and refuges etc - it just feels so regressive. And I feel for the people who are made to feel they need to be trans to be who they want to be, rather than a non-gender conforming male or female. But maybe that's my lack of understanding as a straight cis woman 🤷‍♀️.

Well the penis and testicles are removed

What with?

Still doesn't change their Sex. NOTHING does!

What is the difference between a male person who has had their penis and testes removed due to injury or disease, and maybe on the same hormones for illness and a male person who has surgery to remove their penis and testicles for their gender identity (ie. a philosophical belief)

In my view the language is not vitriolic. The language used shows appreciation of the judgement as it confirms what the poster thinks that is not vitriolic. The posts of anything show hope that this ideology will pass.

I listened to an interview with a detranstioner once who went along with everything because he was terrified he’d lose access to his psychiatrist. He was just a gay kid from an extremely homophobic background who needed someone to talk to. Broke my heart. He should never have been out in that position, it should have been “well it’s fine if you don’t want to transition, lets figure out your other problems instead”.

I believe this may be the same lad who had an 'opening' created by having his penis inverted and who lived with constant pain as a result.

Why? Because the hairs on his penis kept on growing and he had no way of addressing that and they scratched, dug in, caused infections and he was thoroughly miserable. And yes, he only went through with it because the therapist was so positive and encouraging and he was told he wouldn't be able to continue with the therapy if he didn't transition. And he really needed some therapy.

I've read accounts of female detransitioners who now hate the male secondary sex characteristics they acquired through their use of testosterone and have no way of undoing it because, despite what many will try to have you believe, the effects of testosterone on the body are not reversible.

An older (50s I think) man who fully 'transitioned' and found it left his in a social no man's land. He'd been led to believe that transitioning would have opened up a whole new world of acceptance, love and dating experiences but found that women didn't want to date him because he was a man and men didn't want to date him because he had an outward appearance that mimicked a woman. He had been almost completely single since transitioning aside from a few failed attempts and was looking forward to facing a lonely future because he felt he no longer fitted in anywhere. He deeply regretted it amd felt his only choice was to come to some sort of acceptance with what he had done to his body. It was an very sad read tbh.

What I've found from discussing this with a wide range of people of varying ages, educational and socio-economic and employment backgrounds is this.

The people who are fully on the trans side either a) haven't looked into it at all and are very unaware of even the basic facts and implications and so cant see the problem or b) know someone trans and they are a lovely person. Their attitude is one of "I'm not interested in the facts. All I know is that we should be kind to people who are struggling." Those things are not mutually exclusive.

The people who are fully on the side of women's rights generally have fact, figures, reports and evidence they can find at a moments notice because they've done the research. Unfortunately, the fact that the weak arguments of the former could be easily and robustly challenged upset some people and so words like 'hate' were/are thrown around. Some people really struggled with the idea of women standing up for themselves and saying no. Especially the men they were saying no to and the women who were all too used to prioritising everyone else over themselves.

I've.met many people who fell into the former camp who eventually migrated into the second (there have been some interesting accounts on here of women who've done just that over the last few days) but none who started in the latter group who have migrated into the former.

And there's a reason for that.

I think @Helleofaborepp makes sense. Why do you disagree?