Are men going to now wholeheartedly welcome trans women into their spaces? Utterly brilliant if so ...

[loveyouradvice]

Embracing the full breadth of what it means to be a man

I suspect women are, in reality, a lot more accommodating and reasonable than people are saying.

When a large number of women start saying they complained to reception when a single mum brought borderline 8yo into a changing room on a quiet Tuesday evening then I'll believe it. Until then I'll assume women are as understanding as men.

Easy to be difficult online. Slightly harder to make someone's life difficult face to face in reality.

And that assumes there are still dedicated pool changing rooms which I'm still not sure about.

I don't want to derail the thread but a disabled child alone in the mens changing rooms is ringing alarm bells. As someone who has ADHD I now know the ADHD was an extra layer of vulnerability growing up, as I wasn't always able to understand when adults were acting inappropriately. Adults would sometimes offer to help me and sadly they didn't always have good intentions. I'm not saying let him in the female changing room but assumimg he is still young, please be honest with yourself about the type of risks your child faces, which go beyond forgetting his socks.

Small, weak, old men are frequently targeted by men for who they are. Trans women frequently are.

There is lots of commentary on Trans women as victims of violence you think there isn’t?

She would find a pool where there are family changing rooms or similar. As he's 8 then he would be accepted but at 9 he wouldn't. I don't like boys in the women's changing room at 8 much either, if they are not firmly managed by their mother they are looking around and staring too much.

It is a problem for his mother and any other woman with a male child with specific needs to solve. It's perfectly doable.

Oh when isn't there, especially now.

As PP posted, if there would be evidence that victim would be a posterboy.

Men have the luxury of not feeling threatened by other men.
They don’t have to care who they encounter in the toilets.

All my examples are from the USA (of which there are many and trans women having a higher victims of murder rate.)

See what the UK has.

But men as a class are exceptionally violent towards men who go outsite the accepted boundaries of expected manhood. Trans women being a particular victim of this.

This is not me talking about who should be in one toilets. Just simply stating if I was a trans woman I would prefer to go in a bush than risk a space with other men. (Within reason - I am not a trans woman but have used the men’s toilets in some contexts. I would be comfortable using the men’s as a trans woman in those contexts.)

That’s unfortunate, of course, but it’s not down to women to provide the solution.

Commentary or evidence backed discussion?

I didn’t say it was.

A restaurant near us has gone for the unisex loos - I told them they'd have to do something about cleaning them more frequently because they stunk of rancid piss and it that was the state of their loos what did it say about their kitchen hygiene - I haven't been back since!

But there have been trans women killed for being trans, immediately off the top of my head Brianna Ghey is one and I am sure if I could be arsed to Google there would be countless more.

Evidence backed discussion.

(Although as I said earlier the UK doesn’t collate much data on this compared to the USA largely because murder victims are recorded by police officers who typically record by sex.)

Male people with transgender identities are also perpetrators of violence, threats and intimidation just like other male people.

So I guess my point is both statements are likely true.

Male people with transgender identities may be victims of male on male violence and intimidation.

Male people with transgender identities may be perpetrators of female violence and intimidation.

I really am finding, after this week, that this driven narrative of male people with transgender identities being more vulnerable than other male people who are expected to use male single sex spaces to be harder and harder to believe. The constant framing of them as being vulnerable is very discordant in this way.

Looking forward to it.

Because the statistics that I keep seeing posted are for hate crimes which include misgendering if I remember correctly from investigating it in the past.

Google suggests typically the rules are "under 8", so 8 is already too old, they have to be 7. Which is fair enough. I just suspect there's some latitude in reality.

Men who go outside the expected parametres of manhood ARE more vulnerable from attacks from other men. Trans women are more likely to be victims of attacks for who they are compared to non trans men.

Same as gay men face great risk of attack than straight men. I am surprised people are surprised by this.

I assume the people surprised live in bubbles of ultra progessive men?

What was your point, then? I seem to have missed it.

Okay, thanks for clarifying.

If the local pool had sex based changing rooms available, they’d presumably have to not go.

I’ll be frank - the idea that the sex based spaces argument goes as far as disabled children, is frankly ludicrous.

Nobody is threatened by an 8 year old, of any level of need, and I genuinely don’t believe that in reality anyone would say:

“Excuse me love, your non verbal kid looks too old to be here, with him being male. Please show me his birth certificate, or find the nearest exit.”

Surely not 😂

Don’t worry about it.

Does anyone know about gay men in the 70s???

I've picked up from other threads that homophobia was rife and that there were campaigns for the Mens to be more accepting? Anyone know more?

And yes, never was there a suggestion that vulnerable gay men should use the ladies, just that men needed to be more inclusive... and it was seen as successful??????

I think everyone on the planet could guess the correct biological sex of the people being interviewed.

The 'tits' don't do it mate.

By the way all those butch lesbians out there - you won't be accosted at all - women know women.
End of.

It is a problem for his mother and any other woman with a male child with specific needs to solve. It's perfectly doable.

What she said. Don't worry about my DS, when we go swimming he generally brings his (NT) friend and I'm outside the men's changing rooms where I can hear all conversation in there ( it's a small sports centre attached to a secondary school), and from where I can frequently yell 'DS have you even got your towel out yet?' 'DS where are you up to with clothes?' 'DS I can hear you messing about from here' etc etc.

If you have an opposite sex child over 8, whatever their needs, it's on you to work out how to meet them. If DS was 25 and had the cognitive abilities of a 5 year old, we'd have to only go to a pool with family changing cubicles. Women and girls don't have to give way to men or boys with extra needs, in those women and girls own spaces.

Female humans don't exist to facilitate the lives of male humans. I exist to facilitate DSs life, but not at the expense of others. The women posting here that they can't believe their son isn't the exception are making the assumption that others (female ones) have to make way so their son can have what works for him, no matter what works for the female humans. They can't even see their own misogyny. Women and girls are actual full humans, we're not NPCs .

Of course it goes as far as disabled children. Do you think a pubertal 15 year old with LDs doesn't have all the urges and interests that go with puberty? They do. And girls don't have to get changed in front of boys in the girls own changing rooms. Girls are actual humans too.