Labour say transwomen should use the men’s toilet

[Kindersurprising]

https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/trans-women-men-toilets-b8gt6l22c?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0BMQABHlJe7BiT-kgvjfusJpz2eq_AUSGDRI9eAMe5VNA0iX6U2qOUk-U0wPhPI98-_aem_Vfuvll1ZYKrZUa-vjh4QSA#Echobox=1745317525

Squeak squeak burrow burrow. Is that a ferret reversing?

Who here is excited about big, bearded trans men using the women’s toilets? Unintended consequences, anyone?

If you put it like that ...

I would far, far rather a big bearded woman used the loo with me than a big bearded man in lipstick and a wig.

Just what is it that people think will happen to transwomen in men's toilets?

Why are there such low expectations of male behaviour and why aren't we tackling that instead of guilt tripping women?

Yes there are.

Like this one. Or this. Or this.

There's even about:blank fuller studies of people being harassed because others cannot accurately tell what their biological sex is.

None of which would arise if 'we can always tell'.

They go in the men’s. Why wouldn’t they be safe there?

"We need to be able to articulate biological sex and gender and how they are distinct from one another." We can and we do:

• Sex (Male, Female and DSD or intersex) reflects biology which is immutable.
• Gender (Man, Woman, Non-binary, etc.) is a social construct where individuals can choose to identify with whatever gender ID or gender-neutral ID they wish.

Gender-based rights have been enshrined in the Equality Act 2010, but they do not trump sex-based rights. Following the SC ruling, TRAs should now be lobbying for the provision of trans-specific facilities and services under that legislation - such provision would give them equality with males and females, but not diminish sex-based rights.

Within the uk prison system, the male population is compromised of 1/5 of convicted sex offenders. Within the prison population of men that identify as trans , then that figure jumps up to 2/3 of them being convicted sex offenders. That is government statistics.

now I’m not saying that every male that claims to be a woman is a sex offender. But plenty of men in every day life pose a risk to women and children and so as we don’t know which ones are safe and which ones aren’t, they are ALL banned from women’s spaces. Women that take testosterone and cos play men can choose to go into the men’s toilets if that’s what they want. Because women , even women on testosterone, pose very little realistic threat to a man a toilet. The vast majority of men will be bigger, heavier and have more strength.

I consider myself a feminist. I also consider myself to be a reasonable person, tolerant of peoples lifestyles and beliefs. Yet, I am conflicted by this ruling and I suspect I am not alone. If a person who identifies as a female joins me in the toilet queue I have no problem at all. I wont know what their status is because they are in a cubicle, the same as me. However, for me the line is drawn in spaces like open swimming pool changing rooms. This really happened to me and I posted about it on MN. I was in an open plan/open showers swimming pool changing room. stripped off to go in the open shower and then in walked a person in a bikini who very obviously had a penis. This is what I object to. If this person did not have a penis I would not have cared. but they did and I did because I was naked, vulnerable and alone in the changing room. Other options were available for this person to shower and change in but they chose to share a room with me. I fully respect their right to dress and live as a woman. They should fully respect my right not to look at a penis when I am naked in a swimming pool changing room. The law needs to be more nuanced to protect everyones rights not say one right trumps another.

They use the mens. There is no evidence they will be attacked, but women suggested they campaigning for a 3rd space, they rejected it, so that's on them.

TRAs would disagree with you. Medical professionals disagree with you - all the name of inclusion.

He won’t be happy using a female toilets as he doesn’t see himself as female. That’s the flaming point.

once he does transition, And looks male, sounds male etc, Will you still be happy with him in the female toilets then?

Ah, you're forgetting "[only women have a cervix] is something that shouldn't be said".

The poster was claiming that it is always possible to tell someone's biological sex.

If that were the case, there wouldn't be lots of examples of women being harassed by people who think they look like men, and therefore challenging their use of women's bathrooms.

"We can always tell" is a lie told by anti-trans folk to sidestep the very real issues faced by androgynous, masculine and gender non-conforming women arising from their views.

How did they define it?

Well, I have a baby and I can’t go places where there isn’t appropriate nappy changing facilities, many smaller cafes, restaurants don’t… therefore, I just don’t go where I can’t be accommodated. I’m quick to learn where I can and cannot go.
I get on with it, I don’t think my rights have been taken from me. Surely, if there are no mixed toilets; they just go somewhere there is.

@hopspot i think if it’s say a young very feminine looking trans woman they may be at risk of bullying etc in a men’s toilet or changing area, as some people can be transphobic. That being said, I feel that women also deserve their own safe spaces too and if I’m being honest I don’t know if I would like to share my work changing room etc with all trans women….as it may be perfectly fine but some men may take advantage. It’s a grey area.

@mummymeister "If a person who identifies as a female ...". They can't, they can identify as a woman, but not a female.

Little "men" with big hips and small hands. Taking testosterone to grow a beard (and bring on early menopause and osteoporosis) does not make a women into a man, and it takes a microsecond for other women to see that.

You can be sad. Sadness won't erase you or kill you. I'm thrilled. So are most people. The hysteria is all from one side, the genderists.

I don't think it's a grey area at all. If men are being put at risk by other men, in a male area, why would that be women's problem to solve?

Nothing less grey than XX and XY.

@hopspot oh yes and I think a third space would just make sense really wouldn’t it…because them everyone would have the choice and women would feel safe. I don’t know what the problem with a third option would be

Believe it or not, society doesn’t operate on a principle of whether or not an individual is “happy• about the rules that each of us are expected to abide by.
My teenage son wouldn’t be happy standing at a urinal with his penis in his hand and your daughter walking in. He’d be absolutely mortified. But presumably, you think your daughter’s “happiness” takes precedence there. Objective reality does not change because she’s unhappy being female.

And edited to add, yes, even if your daughter manages to grow a wispy beard on cross sex hormones, I’d be happy for her to remain in the female toilets. Because she’s female. With a female build and strength, and the complete lack of male propensity for rape or sexual assault.

While I understand that you don't have a problem, other female people do have a problem. It is not just about safety, it is about privacy too.

Toilets are not just used behind a closed cubicle door. There are quite a few aspects of female toilet usage that happen in the public space, or even now still occur with a toilet door jammed open by a pram or a walking frame / wheel chair.

I think when people think of toilet usage, maybe they have never had to use the toilets in any other way other than behind a closed door. But the needs are still there and they are real for many female people to be able to engage in public life.

Thats not societies problem, sorry. Laws aren't made in order to make everyone happy.